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Martial Law


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#21 Etaywah

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:40 AM

So your argument is that "kneel that location" must be persistent because it is on an attachment card, even though the exact words would NOT be considered persistent on any other card type?

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so. There is nothing in the text of "kneel that location" that tells you it persists. The verb form is wrong (compare to the verbs in actual continuous effects, like "gains"). You have to look at the text itself, not make assumptions based on the type of card the text is printed on. 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Fine. Let's got with "The Lion's Will" instead. It's an event card that reads, "Any Phase: Pay 2 gold to choose a character. Kneel that character." By your argument above, two separate sentences, so two commands, unrelated effects, right? Why doesn't this one reassert itself? When you get to the standing phase, the character is still the character that was chosen. Nothing on the card says the "kneel that character" text no longer applies.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

But you don't have to take my word for it. Send the question in to FFG directly for them to rule on. They've clarified it before, but it never hurts to get an update.

 

 

 

I think we are both making valid points here personally, are you insinuating that there's no room for discussion on this card? You must at least admit that the card has left a bit to the imagination for interpretation. 

 

Back to your response - Once again you're using an event card for your example and event cards are discarded from play and forgotten immediately after they have been played, however if FFG has gone into detail about this card then that settles it. Is there a link or a conversation in a thread that can clarify?

 

"The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so."

 

Is this an official rule?

 

Also, calm it down a bit buddy. We're discussing text on cardboard after all.


Edited by Etaywah, 04 April 2014 - 09:44 AM.


#22 Slothgodfather

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:46 AM

I agree that "kneel that location" needs to have a point of initiation.  It is not a constant like Winterfell offering "All Stark characters get +1 STR" or even a lasting effect.  Would I be comparing apples to oranges if I brought up Enslaved?  "Take control of attached character". 



#23 Slothgodfather

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:53 AM

 

"The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so."

 

Is this an official rule?

 

Also, calm it down a bit buddy. We're discussing text on cardboard after all.

 

 

A card only does exactly what it says it does and nothing more.  This is similar to understanding how you can't trigger effects from your hand or discard pile unless a card effect tells you it can.  So you can't infer that a card does more than it's actual text says it does.

 

 

Second, this card has been out for a long time - along with other cards that have the same exact text in question - and I'm sure it has come up before.  When I did a search though this was the only thread I found discussing Martial Law - which is why I resurrected it.  Also, I didn't really read anything into ktom's response as not being calm, but that's just me.   The suggestion to go ahead and ask FFG isn't a bad one, just to get an absolute clarification on the matter.


Edited by Slothgodfather, 04 April 2014 - 09:54 AM.


#24 Etaywah

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:02 AM

I agree that "kneel that location" needs to have a point of initiation.  It is not a constant like Winterfell offering "All Stark characters get +1 STR" or even a lasting effect.  Would I be comparing apples to oranges if I brought up Enslaved?  "Take control of attached character". 

 

I actually agree with you, but I'd rather flesh out the discussion then just writing off a cards potency without taking a closer look.



#25 Slothgodfather

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:10 AM

I'd suggest going ahead and sending FFG the question.  They hide the "Rules Questions" link at the very very bottom of the page in grey text on a different shade of grey background.  But it is down there.  Let us know what their reply is.


Edited by Slothgodfather, 04 April 2014 - 10:11 AM.


#26 Etaywah

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:47 AM

official response - looks like I was correct. Hooray!  :D

 

Damon Stone
To Me
 
Today at 1:21 PM
The first part of the attachment says that rather than being attached to a character which all attachments must attach to by default, it attaches to an opponent’s location. The next line is the effect which kneels the attached location. That effect will always be active since it has no duration and not trigger requirement. Any attempt to stand it will just reassert the effect, kneeling it.

On Apr 4, 2014, at 11:40 AM, etaywah@yahoo.com wrote:

> Message from:
> Eric Taylor


> E-mail:
etaywah@yahoo.com


> Rule Question:
> I'm trying to settle a discussion about Martial Law - Baratheon Card from Battle of Ruby Ford pack.

> I believe this card is up for some debate.

> The card states:
> "Attach to an opponent's location. 
> Kneel that location."

> It doesn't say "Choose and kneel a location" as most response cars do, it is two separate commands and each are in separate sentences implying they are not in relation to one another.

> #1) Attach to an opponent's location. Do this so the attachment has a card in play that it is legally attache to and is discarded along with that card.
> #2) Kneel that location. Not "Response: When attached to an opponents location, kneel that location."

> Does the attached card stand during the standing phase?

Damon Stone
Associate LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
dstone@fantasyflightgames.com
 


#27 Slothgodfather

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:57 AM

....   ... So Tyrion's Chain will trigger EVERY standing phase?   And Pryomancer's Cache will keep your own location perma-knelt...



#28 Bomb

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:38 PM

I hate to say this, but, if there was a ruling on this type of card effect in the past that supported what ktom was saying, then that means Damon might be incorrect.... and we all know he's been incorrect before.

 

Is there anything on this forum from the past with an official ruling that is opposite of what Damon said?



#29 Etaywah

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:58 PM

I hate to say this, but, if there was a ruling on this type of card effect in the past that supported what ktom was saying, then that means Damon might be incorrect.... and we all know he's been incorrect before.

 

Is there anything on this forum from the past with an official ruling that is opposite of what Damon said?

 

 

Edit: I'm fully down for someone else researching this further so it is played properly in tournament play. Who is considered the "final word" in the rules for FFG?


Edited by Etaywah, 04 April 2014 - 01:08 PM.


#30 Bomb

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:10 PM

Personally, I think it should say:

 

"Attach to a location.

 

If attached location is standing, kneel that location."

 

Otherwise, I believe it is up for interpretation.  The interpretation previously was exactly what ktom had said.



#31 Slothgodfather

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:46 PM

Edit: I'm fully down for someone else researching this further so it is played properly in tournament play. Who is considered the "final word" in the rules for FFG?

 

 

You have an email from one of the designers.   While i don't personally like this method, what u have is law and accepted as a rule.  I do suggest you keep the email handy so you can show it to any TO in any events you go to.  To save yourself the potential argument you may mention it to a TO before the game since, as Bomb points out, it has been a long standing understanding that it did not keep the location knelt.  


Edited by Slothgodfather, 04 April 2014 - 01:53 PM.


#32 sWhiteboy

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:50 PM

Edit:Who is considered the "final word" in the rules for FFG?

 

 

Damon is.  But Damon is also known for handing out incorrect rulings when people ask him via Rules Questions or even just in person.  Sometimes he doesn't take all the information into account, and sometimes he ignore the old rulings which were grandfathered in from the CCG era.

 

Personally, I think this ruling should stand.  It makes some cards much better than they previously were (Tyrion's Chain), and it adds just a little extra restriction on Pyromancer's Cache (though it usually won't matter too much imo).



#33 Pandademic

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:55 PM

I don't know if it can stand. If you apply the same principle to Enslaved and Melisandre's Favor (both say "Take control of attached character," with no explicitly stated point of initiation) then you get control effects that reassert themselves passively every time control changes. And if a character ever gets one of those from two different players, then the game implodes. Is there a rule for first player resolving paradoxes?



#34 sWhiteboy

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:05 PM

I don't know if it can stand. If you apply the same principle to Enslaved and Melisandre's Favor (both say "Take control of attached character," with no explicitly stated point of initiation) then you get control effects that reassert themselves passively every time control changes. And if a character ever gets one of those from two different players, then the game implodes. Is there a rule for first player resolving paradoxes?

 

From the FAQ (3.28 on page 11):  

 

"Unless otherwise stated (for example, with a specified duration), the change of control is permanent until the card that switched sides leaves play or control of the card switches again via a card effect.
 
Note that attachments that grant control effects end when the attachment granting control leaves play."
 
There is no paradox.  The newest card that gives control is the one that counts.


#35 ktom

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:20 PM

Damon says he made a mistake while answering the earlier email. The "Kneel that location" text is passive, activating as a one-shot when the attachment is originally played.

 

Update on official response:

 

To Damon Stone; Nate French

Today at 1:10 PM

 

Saw this on the FFG boards today (Note: Copied email from above).

 

This is a reversal of the way "Attach to a location. Kneel that location." has been played since Burned Fields back in the Iron Throne Edition of the CCG.

 

Is this a brand new ruling? If so, the location you attach Pyromancer's Cache to stays knelt, too. Also, this means if I am playing Tyrion's Chain, I get to kneel all of an opponent's locations every standing phase, the way Lannisport Brothel kneels its attached character every standing phase.

 

Just want to make sure this isn't a mistake.

----------

Nate French

Today at 1:17 PM

 

Kevin,

 

I’m pretty sure this ruling was a mistake, the “kneel that location” should be a one-time effect, when the attachment enters play.

 

Will check with Damon. There may have been something else he was thinking of.

 

Nate

----------

Damon Stone

Today at 2:26 PM

 

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong ruleset. This causes a passive kneel. It is not a constant effect. It resolves just that one time. It is what I get for answering AGoT questions when I’m neck deep in the rules of another game. Mia Culpa.



#36 dcdennis

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:25 PM

Lol he not only made the ruling but defended it and explained WHY in the original email, but now it's just because he looked at the wrong ruleset. That made me giggle.

#37 Slothgodfather

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:26 PM

And like that.  It was done.   Hence my distaste for the e-mail method.  lol.  There goes my Tyrion's Chain + Climbing Ladder deck...


Edited by Slothgodfather, 04 April 2014 - 02:26 PM.


#38 Danigral

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:30 PM

btw Damon. It's MEA culpa. And yes, tua culpa. ;)



#39 Etaywah

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:05 PM

lol ktom, just couldn't let it go, eh?

#40 ktom

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

 

Edit: I'm fully down for someone else researching this further so it is played properly in tournament play. Who is considered the "final word" in the rules for FFG?

 

 

lol ktom, just couldn't let it go, eh?

 

????


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