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#41 Atheosis

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:34 AM

Cynical Cat said:

Could the Sisters be introduced based on their (highly debatable) coolness and the desire for GW to sell minatures?  Sure.  When that happens, 41st Millenium Sisters will be canon.  Can a GM have them in his game anyway?  Yep.  I personally don't understand their appeal (40K has legions of cooler badass warrior chicks) but there are perverts out there who like Tau so whatever makes you happy. 

You think Sisters of Battle are cooler than Untouchable Sisters of Battle?  Okay...



#42 Mantis Sine

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 03:32 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Mantis Sine said:

 

 

I personally (as a GM) prefer sexes to stay the same (pc=player, males def can't play females).

 

 

No offence intended, but the lack of ability for your players to play opposite sexes to their biological sex does not automatically extend to every other RPG player. I have in fact been told I can play female characters exceptionally well, and most of my players have played opposite sexes without any problem.

So please don't use such sweeping statements as "males def can't play females", as that can be proven to be incorrect. Frankly, being restrained to only play a male character by dint of my RL gender would be incredibly dull for me, and would result in me quickly finding another GM who was more open to variety.

No offense taken, my house rules is such that I (as GM) don't like the idea and nip any such ideas as "I'll just squeeze these together to get what I want" from my groups, but then again I know the guys people I'm playing with.  I really did not intend for that to be interpreted as "I don't think any guy ever should play a female."

If it's any consolation I play an all SOB army (for Witch Hunters) for 40k.

And sorry for RE-straying of topic.



#43 theboyidiot

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 09:50 PM

Dodskrigaren said:

 

 Actually, its been stated in several pieces of cannon that Untouchables are much, much rarer than Psykers.

I agree completely. 

I meant to imply that although Untouchables are less common than Pyskers, this is not enough of a reason to believe that the Sisters of Silence no longer exist in the 41st Millennium.



#44 Cynical Cat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:54 PM

Atheosis said:

Cynical Cat said:

 

Could the Sisters be introduced based on their (highly debatable) coolness and the desire for GW to sell minatures?  Sure.  When that happens, 41st Millenium Sisters will be canon.  Can a GM have them in his game anyway?  Yep.  I personally don't understand their appeal (40K has legions of cooler badass warrior chicks) but there are perverts out there who like Tau so whatever makes you happy. 

 

 

You think Sisters of Battle are cooler than Untouchable Sisters of Battle?  Okay...

 

I think Sisters of Silence are lame.  The idea of a warrior-sisterhood that won't use verbal communication is several steps beyond silly in an age of warfare where coordination via vox and other means is standard.  Considering they're specialist anti-psyker troops, correct battlefield deployment is essential and they take a vow that hinders communication.  Compared to the Assassins they are unskilled, compared to the Sororitas they are underequiped, compared to the Imperial Guard they are unprofessional, compared to the Eldar they are slow and clumsy, and taking a vow of silence means can't shout cool things like "Hold in the name of the Inquisition!". 



#45 Dodskrigaren

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:52 PM

Cynical Cat said:

 

I think Sisters of Silence are lame.  The idea of a warrior-sisterhood that won't use verbal communication is several steps beyond silly in an age of warfare where coordination via vox and other means is standard.  Considering they're specialist anti-psyker troops, correct battlefield deployment is essential and they take a vow that hinders communication.  Compared to the Assassins they are unskilled, compared to the Sororitas they are underequiped, compared to the Imperial Guard they are unprofessional, compared to the Eldar they are slow and clumsy, and taking a vow of silence means can't shout cool things like "Hold in the name of the Inquisition!". 

Can you please point to some cannon that says they deploy badly?  Or that they are underequipped compared to the Soritas?  Or that they are unprofessional?  The cannon I've read on them states pretty much the opposite of almost everything you said.  

 

The only areas I might see you having a point in is a Temple Assassin, but then a DW Marine should, statistcally, die to a Temple Assassin, and the Eldar are, outside of demons, some of the fastest and most graceful beings, I fail to see why you bring them up.



#46 Cynical Cat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:54 PM

theboyidiot said:

Dodskrigaren said:

 

 

 Actually, its been stated in several pieces of cannon that Untouchables are much, much rarer than Psykers.

 

 

I agree completely. 

I meant to imply that although Untouchables are less common than Pyskers, this is not enough of a reason to believe that the Sisters of Silence no longer exist in the 41st Millennium.

theboyidiot said:

Dodskrigaren said:

 

 

 Actually, its been stated in several pieces of cannon that Untouchables are much, much rarer than Psykers.

 

 

I agree completely. 

I meant to imply that although Untouchables are less common than Pyskers, this is not enough of a reason to believe that the Sisters of Silence no longer exist in the 41st Millennium.

 

By itself?  Of course not.  It's merely one piece of evidence against the Sisters of Silence continuing to exist.  However, that's not the point.  Stating that the Sisters of Silence canonically exist is making an affirmitive argument, which must be supported with evidence just as the argument that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Fifth, secret Great God of Chaos must be supported by evidence. 

As I've said, a GM shouldn't feel bound by that. If a GM wants Squat Armies or Sisters of Silence in his game, he or she should feel free to do so.



#47 Dodskrigaren

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:02 PM

Cynical Cat said:

 

By itself?  Of course not.  It's merely one piece of evidence against the Sisters of Silence continuing to exist.  However, that's not the point.  Stating that the Sisters of Silence canonically exist is making an affirmitive argument, which must be supported with evidence just as the argument that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Fifth, secret Great God of Chaos must be supported by evidence. 

As I've said, a GM shouldn't feel bound by that. If a GM wants Squat Armies or Sisters of Silence in his game, he or she should feel free to do so.

 

Just as saying they don't exist needs to be supported as well.  My whole entire point of view on the subject is this:

 

They did during the Heresy.  Theres no cannon answer to if they were disbanded, destroyed, absorbed, went underground, stuck around, whatever, so that means until some peice of cannon coming along one way or the other comes along, GM's get to make the call for their own games.



#48 Cynical Cat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:11 PM

Dodskrigaren said:

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

I think Sisters of Silence are lame.  The idea of a warrior-sisterhood that won't use verbal communication is several steps beyond silly in an age of warfare where coordination via vox and other means is standard.  Considering they're specialist anti-psyker troops, correct battlefield deployment is essential and they take a vow that hinders communication.  Compared to the Assassins they are unskilled, compared to the Sororitas they are underequiped, compared to the Imperial Guard they are unprofessional, compared to the Eldar they are slow and clumsy, and taking a vow of silence means can't shout cool things like "Hold in the name of the Inquisition!". 

 

 

Can you please point to some cannon that says they deploy badly?  Or that they are underequipped compared to the Soritas?  Or that they are unprofessional?  The cannon I've read on them states pretty much the opposite of almost everything you said.  

 

The only areas I might see you having a point in is a Temple Assassin, but then a DW Marine should, statistcally, die to a Temple Assassin, and the Eldar are, outside of demons, some of the fastest and most graceful beings, I fail to see why you bring them up.

Dodskrigaren said:

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

I think Sisters of Silence are lame.  The idea of a warrior-sisterhood that won't use verbal communication is several steps beyond silly in an age of warfare where coordination via vox and other means is standard.  Considering they're specialist anti-psyker troops, correct battlefield deployment is essential and they take a vow that hinders communication.  Compared to the Assassins they are unskilled, compared to the Sororitas they are underequiped, compared to the Imperial Guard they are unprofessional, compared to the Eldar they are slow and clumsy, and taking a vow of silence means can't shout cool things like "Hold in the name of the Inquisition!". 

 

 

Can you please point to some cannon that says they deploy badly?  Or that they are underequipped compared to the Soritas?  Or that they are unprofessional?  The cannon I've read on them states pretty much the opposite of almost everything you said.  

 

The only areas I might see you having a point in is a Temple Assassin, but then a DW Marine should, statistcally, die to a Temple Assassin, and the Eldar are, outside of demons, some of the fastest and most graceful beings, I fail to see why you bring them up.

The don't use voice communication and they certainly can't use psychic communication.  Therefore, their ability to coordinate with each other and other arms of the Imperium is greatly hindered as they can't speak over voxes.  Since they're specialist troops that need to be where a specific class of enemy is, that's even more of a handicap than it is for other troop types.  Good communications is an important military asset, vows which hinder and prevent communication over the most common communication network (the vox in 40K) are unprofessional and a handicap.  Poor communications means that its harder to get them to the parts of the battlefield where they are needed.  Any large scale engagement will spread over kilometers and handsign is only good at close range, when your hands aren't full of weapons.  Any 40K force that doesn't employ effective communication methods, whether technological or psychic, is unprofessional.

Sororitas wear power armour, so they are much better equiped.  Considering each Sister of Silence is a highly rare specialist soldier whose talents make them a prime target for conventional weapons on any battlefield where they're worth deploying, it's particularly telling in their case.

Eldar are brought up because they have cool warrior chicks in their ranks.  Ditto for Assassins, which even have a whole shrine of terrifyingly deadly Untouchable warriors.  So when we talk about "cool warrior chicks" they get included and the Sisters come up lacking (in my subjective personal opinion, of course).  How "cool" Sisters are is a subjective personal opinion and I won't try to convince anyone otherwise, but I will explain why I don't think they're cool.



#49 Cynical Cat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:38 PM

Dodskrigaren said:

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

By itself?  Of course not.  It's merely one piece of evidence against the Sisters of Silence continuing to exist.  However, that's not the point.  Stating that the Sisters of Silence canonically exist is making an affirmitive argument, which must be supported with evidence just as the argument that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Fifth, secret Great God of Chaos must be supported by evidence. 

As I've said, a GM shouldn't feel bound by that. If a GM wants Squat Armies or Sisters of Silence in his game, he or she should feel free to do so.

 

 

 

Just as saying they don't exist needs to be supported as well.  My whole entire point of view on the subject is this:

 

They did during the Heresy.  Theres no cannon answer to if they were disbanded, destroyed, absorbed, went underground, stuck around, whatever, so that means until some peice of cannon coming along one way or the other comes along, GM's get to make the call for their own games.

The damn thing just ate my big long post, so I'm going to be keep this short and sweet.

They aren't equal arguments.  Asserting the Sisters exist is a positive argument, which needs to no only withstand counter arguments, but do so in a way that still convincingly makes its point.  It doesn't.  At all.  It consists of "Sisters once existed.  Despite the fact that there is no mention of their current existence, especially in areas that cover their jobs and specialty such as the Inquisition and the Black Ships, despite the fact that other organizations now recruit the tiny number of Untouchables, they must somehow still exist despite absolutely zero supporting evidence."

It's a lousy argument.  You know its a lousy argument, because you're trying to throw the burden of proof back on to me, despite the fact that I've already provided plenty of evidence on why their continued existence is unlikely. 

Can you still have them in your game world despite their not being canon?  Absolutely, go ahead.  I'm not trying to talk you out of it.  You want to say they're canonically still existing in M41?  Prove it.  Give me a sound, logical argument that strongly supports their current existence despite their notable absence from the field of their specialty.  If you can't, then you're going to have to wait for GW to slip them into a modern novel or codex.



#50 Dodskrigaren

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 04:04 PM

Cynical Cat said:

Dodskrigaren said:

 

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

By itself?  Of course not.  It's merely one piece of evidence against the Sisters of Silence continuing to exist.  However, that's not the point.  Stating that the Sisters of Silence canonically exist is making an affirmitive argument, which must be supported with evidence just as the argument that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Fifth, secret Great God of Chaos must be supported by evidence. 

As I've said, a GM shouldn't feel bound by that. If a GM wants Squat Armies or Sisters of Silence in his game, he or she should feel free to do so.

 

 

 

Just as saying they don't exist needs to be supported as well.  My whole entire point of view on the subject is this:

 

They did during the Heresy.  Theres no cannon answer to if they were disbanded, destroyed, absorbed, went underground, stuck around, whatever, so that means until some peice of cannon coming along one way or the other comes along, GM's get to make the call for their own games.

 

 

The damn thing just ate my big long post, so I'm going to be keep this short and sweet.

They aren't equal arguments.  Asserting the Sisters exist is a positive argument, which needs to no only withstand counter arguments, but do so in a way that still convincingly makes its point.  It doesn't.  At all.  It consists of "Sisters once existed.  Despite the fact that there is no mention of their current existence, especially in areas that cover their jobs and specialty such as the Inquisition and the Black Ships, despite the fact that other organizations now recruit the tiny number of Untouchables, they must somehow still exist despite absolutely zero supporting evidence."

It's a lousy argument.  You know its a lousy argument, because you're trying to throw the burden of proof back on to me, despite the fact that I've already provided plenty of evidence on why their continued existence is unlikely. 

Can you still have them in your game world despite their not being canon?  Absolutely, go ahead.  I'm not trying to talk you out of it.  You want to say they're canonically still existing in M41?  Prove it.  Give me a sound, logical argument that strongly supports their current existence despite their notable absence from the field of their specialty.  If you can't, then you're going to have to wait for GW to slip them into a modern novel or codex.

 

See, your saying I said they exist in the 41st milleum according to cannon, something I never said.  Just said they could.  Theres /no/ cannon either way to resolve the issue, at which point, the arguement that they exist, or that they don't, is a matter of opinion and personal taste.  Chill a little and dial it back man.



#51 Cynical Cat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:20 PM

Dodskrigaren said:

See, your saying I said they exist in the 41st milleum according to cannon, something I never said.  Just said they could.  Theres /no/ cannon either way to resolve the issue, at which point, the arguement that they exist, or that they don't, is a matter of opinion and personal taste.  Chill a little and dial it back man.

 

Again, you're mistating the argument.  The existing canon contains absolutely no mention of the Sisters, especially in areas where they would be logically employed.  There is no canon support for them existing in the 41st Millenium.

Two sidenotes:

1) Deathwatch is at the printers!  Rejoice!  I command it!

 

2) The Sisters origins are curious.  The secular Empire that the Emperor was forging would not have created them.  Only female Untouchables?  Sworn to silence when they're working with others to harvest and manage psykers or provide anti-psyker battlefield support?  That's not the rational way to go about things.  It seems more likely that they were some kind of pre-Imperial monastic order that was incorporated into the larger fabric of the Imperium.  That would be an interesting story to tell.



#52 theboyidiot

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 01:51 AM

I think this horse died some time ago, and maybe it's time we stopped flogging it so hard.  The argument, such as it is, is like an athiest and an agnostic arguing about the non-existence of God.

Like Dodskrigaren, I haven't argued or asserted that the Sisters of Silence absolutely exist in the 41st millennium, merely that they might.  We currently have no way of knowing one way or the other.

To travel slightly further away from the original topic of this post, I am curious about what (if any) militant arm the Adeptus Astra Telepathica might maintain the the 41st millennium.  How do they keep the psyker tithe in line?.

Any ideas?



#53 Cynical Cat

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 01:00 PM

Actually we do know a fair amount about how the Adepta Astra Telepathicus manages the psyker tithe.  First, it's important to remember that in most cases its already collected.  That's one of the obligations of the Imperial Commander. So we're not talking about overpowering them, we're talking about managing prisoners.  Dealing with rogue psykers is of course the Inquisition's buisness and they canonically have a close relationship with the Adepta Astra Telepathicus.

Null warded dungeon areas have been clearly established and obviously make the psykers much easier to handle.  One storage facility automatically flooded the area with nerve gas if the null field failed for any reason.  Big scary guys in full body armour, shock staves, and other weapons have also shown up.  It's likely that they're trained/conditioned/equipped with anti-psyker mental techniques and gear to minimize their vulnerability.  There's also the psykers who are part of the Adepta.  You add that together and you've got a pretty good space dungeon and guard force for your very dangerous bunch of prisoners.



#54 miss dee

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 05:15 AM

Cynical Cat said:

Here's the thing with the lack of information:  the burden of proof is on the side asserting that something exists.  My claims about invisible flying elephants existing slighty out of phase with our material universe do not exist on equal footing with the contrary argument that there are no such thing.  By saying such elephants exist I making a positive claim and must support it.  We do know: 

 

1) that Untouchables are very, very rare

2) The Inquisition and the Officio Assassinorum both use them and both organizations didn't exist in their current, Untouchable using forms during the Heresy era.

3) There are no post Heresy references to the Sisters.

Now a GM can do whatever the hell he wants.  You can run a 40K game where the Tau rule half the galaxy, there are female space marines, and the Emperor has walked off the Golden Throne if you want to.  There's nothing wrong with running a game where the Sisters of Silence still exist and serve the Astra Telepathicus or are a secret Inquisition order. 

At the end of the day its your game, your universe.






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