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The definitive Haarlock's Legacy speculation [AND SPOILER!] thread


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#41 Graver

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 10:06 AM

ThenDoctor said:

well im not trying to say that you will never see the main enemy from RT in DH but it wont be as pronounced, instead of an entire ship of the alien tech you main find a small cult worshiping one of the black crowns which is their tech but you wouldnt find a huge amount of Haarlock in RT either because his influence is now on the planets he went to

Just to pick some nits, the Haarlocks were active in the Expancse as well as the Calixis Sector. Solomon is belived to have spent some time charting out chunks of it now lost, and Erasmus is belived to have went deep into the Expanse in that 10 year period of time between his wife dying due to his cousisns sorcery and him returning with vile knowledge and xeno-weaponry to comence the whole-sale slaughtering of his family. So, there's be planets out there that have felt their touch and hold their secrits just as there are in the Calixis Sector. ;-)

The two settings aren't all that separate and they sleep together quite often.



#42 Brother Praetus

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:02 AM

Graver said:

The two settings aren't all that separate and they sleep together quite often.

So...  Their Role-Playing Games with benefits, so to speak. 

"Hey RT, do you mind if I borrow the Thousand thousand teef today?  I need a good Orky incursion for my Xenos group."

"By all means, Dark.  After all, without your promising sales, I would merely be an crumpled idea in a waste basket.  I'll need some Yu'Vath planets for my peeps Exploration and Military Endeavors later..."

-=Brother Praetus=-


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#43 Logister

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 11:08 AM

I don’t have my books right now, so apologies ahead of time if my quotes are a little off or I don’t exactly remember the names of some aliens or inquisitors.

First, let me preface by saying that, while poetic, this theory of the Tyrant Star being the warp-shadow of the dying planet Tanis is not quite apocalyptic enough. Komus is a force which not only kills planets but also knocks off the time-space continuum in the Calaxis sector in specific, and the halo stars in general. Astropaths can hear its 'breathing' (or something roughly analogous) when engaging in warp travel (ref. data fragments sent from astropaths to saint Drusus in Disciples of the Dark Gods). Planets die all the time, why is this one so special that it creates a cosmos distroying force in the process?

Furthermore, if it was something Haarlock created, rather than some antediluvian force, it would stand to reason that Haarlock could maintain a sizeable degree of direct control over it, and this is not the case. Yes, it did make an appearance in tattered fates, but the Widower pointed out that it was 'stolen light' and, hence, not actually the Tyrant Star itself. Komus seems to appear at random and wipe planets out with little or no warning, and the servants of twilight (a cult that is, apparently, unrelated to the Haarlock line) appear to have the ability to cause faux manifestations (rather than the reality destroying kind) (Ref. DotDG). These facts lend themselves to the interpretation that Komus is its own entity rather than Haarlocks private weapon.

My interpretation of The Death of Tanis painting in Tattered fates is simply that Solomon Haarlock (or whichever one it was that founded Xicaraph) stumbled upon the planet Tanis as it was being consumed by Komus, and by the time bending clockwork sorceries that seem to be ancestral to the Haarlocks captured part of its essence in the Steel clock. Hence the glyphs on the painting referring to time, captivity, darkness, etc.

Moreover, if Komus is a fairly new entity (as this Tanis warp-shadow theory necessarily suggests) why are the halo stars a kind of Xenological graveyard? Why have the eldar (who were here long before humans) placed 'Trespassers will DIE TERRIBLY' warnings to themselves on Seedword-ABC? (or whatever that planets name is).

 


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#44 Logister

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 01:30 PM

My theory pertaining to Komus is still in gestation, but there are a few salient facts that I consider important that have not been covered here (Also, If your name is James Hernandez , stop reading now the God Emperor commands it):

1) Colonius Vestra (villain in DotDG) is most certainly corrupted by Komus (he says as much). Vestra, one of the most faithful of the ministorum, turns to Chaos overnight because of some encounter with the Star. Complication: Komus is almost certainly some sort of xenos-warp entity (which is sort of like saying that it is "certainly something"),but there are no indications in any literature that it is a chaos-xenos-warp entity. In fact, it seems to be entirely dissimilar to any kind of daemon, since it seemingly lacks the only two characteristics that all daemons have: 1) conscious thought, and 2) exaggerated representationalism of human traits.

This complication leads us to a vexing conclusion: Komus turns humans to chaos but is not of chaos.

2) The Hereticus Tenebre prophecies seem to indicate that the Tyrant Star has some sort of chosen ones or standard bearers which are symotainiously in league with the star and yet working against it.

3) Solomon Haarlock claimed that when 7 demonic entities are released then the Tyrant Star/End of days will be at hand. The implication of this being that the presence of Chaos brings about the Tyrant Star. This fact seems do preclude Komus from being a Tyranid Hive fleet or a Necron Death world (probably the two leading xenological theories) since neither of these races are brought about by, or attracted to, chaos.

4) The Servants of Twilight cult has the capacity to summon the star to their own inscrutable ends.

5) The Halo Artifacts seem to have some relation to the star for the following reasons: (1) the only things that indicate the same amount technological/sorcerous sophistication required to create the Tyrant star are Halo Devices (2) Haarlock seems to be able to bend the Spider Bride to his will. This is only plausible if Haarlock has some relationship to the halo devices akin to the relationship he has with Komus.

These facts led me to create the following story pertaining to the Tyrant Star for my last game:

Colonius Vestra (along with the inquisitor that he corrupted, see DotDG) is a member/leader of the Servants of Twilight. All the members of the cult (which has a very exclusive membership list) are people who have been selected by the Tyrant star to be its herald. They have the ability to summon an incomplete manifestation of the star, but cannot use it to destroy worlds. Being Heralds they also have all the benefits of having halo devices (or the same tech used by those who created the star) without the negative side effect of being turned into an alien monstrosity. All the members of the twilight cult try to cause as much heresy and chaos as possible including but not limited to the summoning of the seven demonic entities. These activities attract the attention of the Tyrant Star which manifests and destroys everything.

In essence, the Tyrant Star was a giant anti-Chaos super weapon that sends out its chaos-worshipping heralds into the nearby sectors to find/create chaos, which in turn causes the Star to rise from dormancy and eliminate the offending warp taint.

Or at least, that was what the PCs thought...
 



#45 The Laughing God

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:48 AM

Excellent post Logister!

Allow me to reply:

where exactly in Tattered Fates does the Widower say that it is 'stolen light' when it talks about the Black sun?

- I don't think Halo Artefacts should be thrown in to the equation of Haarlock and the Tyrant Star. They seem to have an alltogether different theme to them: physical corruption and unholy metamorphosis, than time manipulation and revenge.

- Agreed that it does not seem that Haarlock can control the Tyrant Star. It seems more like a force of nature. But the two are definitely entwined. Just now in DotDG on p15 it reads:

The herald shall return from that great and echoing place (death? the past? outerspace? The herald is obviously Haarlock)
He will return and there will be great power with him (does this refer directly to the Tyrant Star?)
But his power shall be that of the lost and other, even the damned, shall know it not (the damned seems to refer to those in the thrall of Chaos, lending weight to your theory that Komus is not associated to Chaos as they 'shall know it not')
Fools will be his bearers, his coming will be the coming of ruin and death though not of his own making (but of Komus' making?)
And so with all in motley and blood the players shall wait and the darkness shall pour, clawing from out of a dark sun and vomit darkness into the offering bowl.

I am especially intrigued by these references to fools and players. It seems to suggest some kind of madman's carnivale, a great unholy feast or an orgy at the end of the world.


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#46 Graver

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 08:23 AM

The Laughing God said:

 

The herald shall return from that great and echoing place (death? the past? outerspace? The herald is obviously Haarlock)
He will return and there will be great power with him (does this refer directly to the Tyrant Star?)

 

 

The Echoing Vault?  I have a feeling that Kumos is somehow tied into that odd and mythic place from times long past...

The Laughing God said:


Fools will be his bearers, his coming will be the coming of ruin and death though not of his own making (but of Komus' making?)
And so with all in motley and blood the players shall wait and the darkness shall pour, clawing from out of a dark sun and vomit darkness into the offering bowl.

 

I am especially intrigued by these references to fools and players. It seems to suggest some kind of madman's carnivale, a great unholy feast or an orgy at the end of the world.

 

 

The Menagerie? Kumos dose seem to spread chaos and madness, so do they. The serve the KiRaT who is one of the Seven so they're already tied into this twisted mess. It would be an easy leap to assume that they are such fools, but would such a leap be too easy?



#47 Logister

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 09:43 AM

The Laughing God said:

Excellent post Logister!

Allow me to reply:

where exactly in Tattered Fates does the Widower say that it is 'stolen light' when it talks about the Black sun?

- I don't think Halo Artefacts should be thrown in to the equation of Haarlock and the Tyrant Star. They seem to have an alltogether different theme to them: physical corruption and unholy metamorphosis, than time manipulation and revenge.

- Agreed that it does not seem that Haarlock can control the Tyrant Star. It seems more like a force of nature. But the two are definitely entwined. Just now in DotDG on p15 it reads:

The herald shall return from that great and echoing place (death? the past? outerspace? The herald is obviously Haarlock)
He will return and there will be great power with him (does this refer directly to the Tyrant Star?)
But his power shall be that of the lost and other, even the damned, shall know it not (the damned seems to refer to those in the thrall of Chaos, lending weight to your theory that Komus is not associated to Chaos as they 'shall know it not')
Fools will be his bearers, his coming will be the coming of ruin and death though not of his own making (but of Komus' making?)
And so with all in motley and blood the players shall wait and the darkness shall pour, clawing from out of a dark sun and vomit darkness into the offering bowl.

I am especially intrigued by these references to fools and players. It seems to suggest some kind of madman's carnivale, a great unholy feast or an orgy at the end of the world.

When the widower reveals himself and fights heron mask during the eclipse, he claims that the 'light was stolen' or something to that effect.

I agree that the halo artifacts are a weak point in my theory. There is no necessary connection between them and the tyrant star. I just think that they are cool and Haarlocks definately have access to them (there is one for auction in the house of dust and ash, as well as the spider bride having one). However, the tyrant star is known to cause mutation and madness and so do halo artifacts... (but really, what doesn't cause mutation and madness?)

I think that the great and echoing place is probably the 'blind tresseracht' (or whatever) that the daemon in the mirror refered to at the end of shattered cities.

There is an interesting quote in the Radicals Handbook (I think) by ex-Inquisitor Nephratities (the one who was excommunicated and killed by Rhykuss for her obsession with extending her life unaturally and vowed 'I'll be back') that goes something along the lines of:

'Behind the forbidden gates and broken chains there is a throne that even gods fear to take'

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say that that throne that she is reffering to is the same thing that Erasmus sought.

'He will return and there will be a great power with him' I agree with graver. This obviously reffers to Erasmus and the Tyrant Star.

'But his power shall be that of the lost and the other, even the damned, shall know it not' This just makes it more clear that the power is that of Komus.

'Fools will be his bearers, his coming will be the coming of ruin and death though not of his own making' I interpret this to mean that the fools are the damned whose presence will bring about the star as per my theory. And Haarlock's presence, being one of the 7, will also serve to awaken the star thus causing ruin and death that is not of his own making.

The last line, however, is beyond me. Either my theory is wrong/incomplete, or I just dont understand what it is trying to get at.

 



#48 ThenDoctor

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 01:24 PM

i do like this theory quite a bit. i honestly cant see any problems with it because its logic is sound. i wonder if FFG ever uses these ideas we throw out here


I've made an expanded Divinations table for Dark Heresy Second Edition.

 

Find it here: http://community.fan...general-thread/


#49 The Laughing God

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 08:32 PM

Logister said:

'But his power shall be that of the lost and the other, even the damned, shall know it not' This just makes it more clear that the power is that of Komus.

I think this makes clear that Komus is not of Chaos origin or making, or associated with Chaos. Not even the damned (i.e. those in the service of Chaos) shall know the power and nature of Komus.


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#50 Logister

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 05:51 PM

Well, Komus does have some Chaos association since the 7 entities are often of chaos origin. However, I agree that the quote seems to have the implication that Komus is not Chaos itself.

Out of curiosity, what background do we have on the 7? By my reckoning there are 4 that are pretty clear and 3 that are ambiguous. A list follows:

  • The Voice of the Flame: The daemon Balphomael (DotDG)
  • The False Prince: Tychak Crowfather (the daemon from adventure in the core rulebook)
  • The Treader in the Dust: The Radiant King (DotDG)
  • The Night Traveler: Erasmus Haarlock (duh)

Then the tree that I want to know more about:

  • The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.
  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)
  • The Empty Hunger: Astral entity, aetheric residue of extinct xenoform, attributed cause of lethal psychic phenomena, Drusis Shrine World/Sacris. (I got nothing)


#51 LETE

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 04:47 AM

Logister said:

 

 

  • The Voice of the Flame: The daemon Balphomael (DotDG)
  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)

 

 

 

Well, maybe I can shed some light (for the Emperor, of course):

 

The Voice sounds like some kinda wink to BAPHOMET, the supposed entity the real life Templars worshipped, a Talking Head, literally.  Most likely just BS created to get them in trouble with everyone.  The Templars had a lot of dough & lotse peeps owed 'em.

Mord'dagan sounds awfully like MORDDIGGIAN, Clark Ashton Smith's (HP Lovecraft's pal), Charnel God of the ghouls.

 

Now, we can only speculate if these are entities based entirely on the originals, just a nod to them (thusly completely made-up by FFG/GW), or coincidences.

 

 

L



#52 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:19 AM

Logister said:

  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)

The Saynay Clan are referenced in the Rogue Trader rulebook, listed amongst the Chaos Pirates that roam the Koronus Expanse.


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#53 ThenDoctor

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:19 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Logister said:

 

  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)

 

 

The Saynay Clan are referenced in the Rogue Trader rulebook, listed amongst the Chaos Pirates that roam the Koronus Expanse.

 

if its from dusk its probably the Hag Witch that makes pacts by mutilating peoples bodies something obviously chaos piratey and kind of dark eldary


I've made an expanded Divinations table for Dark Heresy Second Edition.

 

Find it here: http://community.fan...general-thread/


#54 The Laughing God

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:55 PM

Logister said:

The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.

The Empty Hunger: Astral entity, aetheric residue of extinct xenoform, attributed cause of lethal psychic phenomena, Drusis Shrine World/Sacris. (I got nothing)

IIRC the entire world ocean of Spectoris is somehow sentient. Something is down there. I wonder if all these entities can be called daemons, I think they are pre-human things that out of ignorance are grouped together now by those who know as daemons, but they can be something else alltogether (just as the returning Erasmus Haarlock).

The Empty Hunger reminds me of fluff I read in Xenology (excellent book!), about a god driven out into realspace and fragmented into thousands of shards of its former essence, the Umbra.


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#55 Graver

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:38 PM

The Laughing God said:

Logister said:

 

The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.

The Empty Hunger: Astral entity, aetheric residue of extinct xenoform, attributed cause of lethal psychic phenomena, Drusis Shrine World/Sacris. (I got nothing)

 

 

IIRC the entire world ocean of Spectoris is somehow sentient. Something is down there. I wonder if all these entities can be called daemons, I think they are pre-human things that out of ignorance are grouped together now by those who know as daemons, but they can be something else alltogether (just as the returning Erasmus Haarlock).

The Empty Hunger reminds me of fluff I read in Xenology (excellent book!), about a god driven out into realspace and fragmented into thousands of shards of its former essence, the Umbra.

The Lingerer or That Which Lingers. A god of the Hrud and seems to mirror Kaine's fate in a lot of ways. I don't think the Umbra and the Empty hunger are linked. That Which Lingers doesn't strike me as Hungering all that much... just, well, Lingering...



#56 Idaan

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 03:57 AM

Logister said:

Then the tree that I want to know more about:

  • The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.

The Inquisitor's Handbook mentions a powerful xeno entity called the Umbran (not to be mixed with the Umbra of Xenology) that lived in the waters of Spectoris, fathered a lot of spawn and was finally killed by Inquisition intervention... Or was it?



#57 The Laughing God

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:06 AM

On a bit of a sidetrack: does anyone know when Haarlock part III: Dead Stars will be released?


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#58 zombieneighbours

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:58 AM

The Laughing God said:

 @Graver: wouldn't surprise me if the Gilded Widow is indeed a throw-away name because it sounded cool and ties in to the Widow theme. The whole House of Dust and Ash adventure in some respects seems like a draft version of Tattered Fates anyway (though I really like it!): acolytes locked up in a closed locale (the crematorium vs the mansion) with a countdown to destruction (the firestorm program vs the Tyrant star), a dangerous murdering entity (Gilded Widow vs the Widower), meant to do away with Haarlock's descendants and relatives.

A thought that suddenly struck me after perusing Tattered Fates again (which has some references in the form of the words 'captivity'  and 'time'  next to a painting of the fate of Tanis, IIRC, and the Widower says something like ' a shadow out of time'  when referring to the Tyrant star, but I will have to look this up once I am back behind my books again) ...

... what if the Tyrant star is some kind of shadowy representation of Tanis, the soul of that murdered world, come back from the past to cause destruction and madness???

Maybe Komus is Tanis but caught out of time, a lingering echo of a world slaughtered overnight?

 

And about that letter that is printed on the pages of Tattered Fates and Damned Cities .. I noticed it is also on the pages of the Radical's Handbook. If we can find it in more books, its significance to the Haarlock's Legacy should probably not be overestimated :)

Bwt the more I think of it, the less I find Damned Cities to be about Haarlock. It is a murder mystery and the main protagonist knows about Haarlock, but that is all. It's more like a standalone adventure with some references to the Legacy thrown in at the end, then a logical and narratively logical installment of the trilogy.

 

'The letter' is also in the pages of dark heresy. I do not have a copy of Inquisitor to hand, but i believe that it is a quote from Inquisitor Quixos, before his death at the hands of Inquisitor Eisenhorn. However, i really like it as a quote from haarlock.



#59 ThenDoctor

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:11 AM

im fairly sure its in every DH book that they have out, though i dont think quixos said it to eisenhorn. he didnt really have much time to say anything before eisenhorn finished him off


I've made an expanded Divinations table for Dark Heresy Second Edition.

 

Find it here: http://community.fan...general-thread/


#60 zombieneighbours

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:27 PM

Pretty sure is inquisitor, listed with source. I think i will be popping home tomorrow, so i may be able to check then. Ofcause, i am working from memory, and it was maybe two years ago then i last read the setting material for inquisitor.






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