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The new fate rule


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#21 Mattr0polis

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:19 PM

 I was another person in the camp not really liking the fate mechanic when I first heard about it. Though, after thinking about it a bit more I don't think it will change the game too much. Think about just how many times you roll a die in a game of Talisman. Only having a few re-rolls out of all of those rolls won't change things too much, especially since using a fate token doesn't necessarily guarantee a better result.

Also, people are making a big deal of re-filling fate at the graveyard, but being able to land on that space itself requires a bit of luck. I guess someone could go out of their way to try and land there by wasting a few turns hanging out close to that location or by wasting fate tokens for more chances to land there, but both of these options mean that the player is wasting time he could be using for other things.

So yeah, I don't think it will change the game as much as people think. I'll wait till I can try it out for a few games before I judge it any further.



#22 Roy

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:39 PM

I don't like fate at all- it is sompletely broken in my book.

In our games there are few 'breaking points' - points where the most powerful character can be overwhelmed and this will make the cause even harder - even 1 fate point can change the game.

I agree with RiCHiE about the risk factor - players won't think twice or about the reprocusssions if they have a fate point under their belt.  Also I do agree that it makes the downfalls of the game memorable - Talisman is not a strategy game. 

But not fair to jusge without playtesting.... I am having a game tonight, so I'll try it out with second edition, thanks to all for the fate point postings.

 



#23 Gorthuar

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 10:30 PM

SubElement said:

Actually:

Druid: 4

Troll: 1

Wizard: 3

Assasin: 3

Elf: 3

Thief: 2

Prophetess: 2

Monk: 4

Dwarf: 5

Warrior: 1

So the highest is 5. Don't get me wrong, I like the fate value, I mean technically the Warrior has this ability built into his character which I have found exceedingly overpowered for a LONG time.

Proves me wrong then. Oh well, I still like the options Fate presents :] Plus, I can always tone the numbers down if they proove to high. Better then ditching the whole mechanism, I guess.

 

I thank you for your time

 

 

Lord Gorthuar de Veris

Cult of Nagash



#24 JCHendee

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 04:34 AM

On the issue of getting Fate in the Graveyard (or Lives in the Chapel), sans a spell or some beneficial Event, you still have to get there by a roll of the dice. We are not talking about just making a run for the Chapel or Graveyard, then stopping there if our roll exceeds the needed number to do so. It is still going to be difficult to do it to some degree.

I'm guessing, like the Pool of Life, there wil be an equivalent added to the Adventure deck for Fate. Even that will require one to roll lucky (sans assistance), and only one point will be gain on any visit (to a max pool of 4).

Question: did any one note if Fate at the Graveyard says "gain" or maybe "recover" Fate? I'm wondering if a character's starting Fate operates in same way as Life.  It should.  "Heal" can only take one to starting quota, and "gain" is required to go above it. One would hope (or am I just wishing) that such a distinction (little as it is) was place on Fate as well.



#25 Gorthuar

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:11 AM

The complete new rules for the Graveyard, as found here: http://new.fantasyfl...ws.asp?eidn=267 are: Neutral players may replenish their starting Fate there, by sacrificing 1 gold for each Fate point. Evil players will automatically replenish their starting Fate points or can pray. On 1-4 they'll be ignored, on 5 they'll gain (as opposed to replenish) 1 Fate point, on 6 they'll gain 1 Spell.

It seems people here should check out the Talisman section of FFG's website (as opposed to forums) more often ;)

One thing that seems a bit scary is the alignment-changing Druid with 4 Fate. Will have to see how it works though.

 

I thank you for your time

 

 

Lord Gorthuar de Veris

Cult of Nagash



#26 Zadok13

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:58 AM

Personally, fate is one of the main reasons my girlfriend and I are actually going to pick up the game.  I'm really glad they added one more thing to think about while running around the board.  I'm not looking for a deep eurogame, but after my first play of the 4th edition, I felt like it needed a little more in the ways of decision making.  Fate also gives a little more variety to the characters, making each one even more unique 

Another aspect of fate that really peaks my interest is the black side.  I can not wait to see what that really entails, there is even more to fate than what we already know.  Frankly I am completely suprised by the strong resentment towards this addition.  Would love to read a session report or two of this new version and see how much of an impact fate really has.



#27 Brando

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 11:35 AM

Fate will turn out fine. Consider 5 years down the road when there are many expansions to the game. Think about how many rolls one will make in a game with all of these expansions...getting 2-5 extra rolls will NOT be a game changer but certainly could at least give someone a chance to experience a game ruining loss.



#28 gatefold313

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 02:05 PM

At first hearing about the Fate rule I was not feeling it at all. With all the gameboard and card changes that will be made I'm still not feeling it. But I will buy the game anyways because I would like to play the most current version of the game including expansions.  At first I was only going to buy the upgrade pack for the BI edition of the game but the whole fact of the matter is that FFG fully intends to apply the fate rule to every aspect of the game, and further down the line I want to keep confusion out of my Talisman games with mix and match gameboard and cards.  I still think that rerolling dies isnt going to change the game the way that FFG intends it to.  I have seen players roll horribly all night and extra rolls just don't help they will roll three and under casue they have the wrong kind of juju.  I can however see it playing around with a lot of the kick in the pants monents in the game, losing a point here and there, turning to a toad, choosing between fighting a dragon at game start or going to the graveyard and losing a life.  That is just how the game was played. I'm sure all of us will house rule fate out or play with it and deal. It's nothing to cry over.  Now purchasing a new edition of a game and a couple of months down the line having to purchase it again because even with the "upgrade" pack you still don't get everything you need to fully convert your game, that's worth crying over.  BI messed up in the first place by printing such a mistake ridden game, FFG is kind of putting salt in the BI 4th edition owners wounds by changing rules that will effect the game universally leaving buying the game again the only choice for those who really want to be set up properly for expansions down the line.



#29 JCHendee

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 03:11 PM

Gorthuar said:

...Neutral players may "replenish" ... Fate there, by sacrificing 1 gold for each Fate point. Evil players will automatically replenish their starting Fate points or can pray. ...on 5 they'll "gain" (as opposed to replenish) 1 Fate point...

Thanks... that's just wording I was wondering about and should have looked up myself.



#30 rcmoore

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 03:18 PM

The Talismangler would be rolling in his grave over this "fate".  Only the Talismangler should control player's fate. 

But seriously, I think the biggest downside will be fewer toads.  Then again, think of the poor shlup who rolls the second "1" at the Enchantress (or witch or whatever).  THAT will be a toad to remember!  Otherwise, I think it will be interesting how it all plays out and to see how FFG incorporates the concept in the future expansions.



#31 RiCHiE

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:34 PM

Well we gave it a playtest, and it is very powerful. 

(NOTE: I am heavily restraining on writing essays of the games here) 

If you have a lot of fate (we played dwarf, troll & warrior for first game without new character stats, just the fate amounts SubElement posted), like the dwarf you own the board.  I must admit that luck went the dwarf's way (was trying to get go evil at the mystic, but in the end picked up mesphito), which really allowed him to own the board.  Constant visting of the enchantress supplied him with a healthy supply of strength, craft and spells to keep the firepower going.  Keeping a couple of fate points in hand the strategy was graveyard->Enchantress to beef up.  Even though the warrior killed him in combat on a couple of occasions the dwarf easily won.

Having 1 fate point didn't really make too much difference for the Troll and the warrior, but was consumed in combat rolls for the troll.

Added two house rules:  If you turn into a toad fate doesn't apply (eg if you roll a 1 your a toad, you cannot use fate), and you cannot use fate in the inner region (we like to see players get stuck at dice with death and wanted all challenges to still have merit and not get 'fated' away).

Thinking of adding a third that you re-roll ALL dice as the it seemed more advantegous at the Temple to hold one dice and roll the other.  After some discussion, we thought we would leave it for the moment.

We played a second game with the druid, warrior and troll again (were going to play wizard but it was getting late), and it was a lot more balanced. In fact it was a ripper of a game with the Druid just falling short of reaching the crown to challenge the warrior. 

I wouldn't say we were fans of the rule overall, or it adds any new dimension to the game at this stage, but I am assume it will play its part in "The Raper"



#32 rcmoore

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 02:49 AM

RiCHiE said:

If you have a lot of fate (we played dwarf, troll & warrior for first game without new character stats, just the fate amounts SubElement posted), like the dwarf you own the board.  I must admit that luck went the dwarf's way (was trying to get go evil at the mystic, but in the end picked up mesphito), which really allowed him to own the board.  Constant visting of the enchantress supplied him with a healthy supply of strength, craft and spells to keep the firepower going.  Keeping a couple of fate points in hand the strategy was graveyard->Enchantress to beef up.  Even though the warrior killed him in combat on a couple of occasions the dwarf easily won.

That does sound a bit overpowered.

RiCHiE said:

I wouldn't say we were fans of the rule overall, or it adds any new dimension to the game at this stage, but I am assume it will play its part in "The Raper"

I don't like the sound of THAT expansion.



#33 JCHendee

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:21 AM

RiCHiE said:

Well we gave it a playtest, and it is very powerful. 

 Thanks for the input, though after some discussions off board with two other players (one who also does some game design), what you presented concerning the Dwarf and Troll was exactly what we came up - in theory and then in play. We chose those same two characters in one game as examples of Fate extremes.

We don't (yet) have a revised edition or an upgrade to my standard 4th, but we faked in Fate with details acquired from FFG online articles and Fate stats reported on the forums. A flawed approach perhaps, but it was all we could do while we wait. The Dwarf pretty much walked over other characters (without a Runesword), though I'm not sure how much was do to Fate.  The dwarf was able to do more re-rolling early on than most other characters played. There was advantage in this that gave the dwarf an early lead on beefing up.

As to Fate providing a sense of control versus the game's randomness, this was limited. It is still about mechanics, and for a board game, that's not necessarily negative. Overall, the only thing Fate really accomplished (besides some early signs of imbalance between characters) was a minor speed up of initial game play - for some characters. Such were kept from being easily trounced by powerful Enemies drawn early from the Adventure deck. A few times such nasty surprises were defeated on a re-roll (or a draw occured), 50% of the time by the Dwarf. The Dwarf and Troll spent less time running to get new lives (for the Troll it was his starting Lives that did this). In one game, the Dwarf whacked a Dragon on his fifth turn (with a re-roll) and bumped a Strength point instantly. And the Troll got his butt kicked by a Ghost (C 4) after having used up its one Fate point.

Even the speed factor in characters taking first steps toward beefing up wasn't much of a pay-off and not necessarily a desired one. People have differing opinions and legitimate arguments as to whether the game should be easier or remain a risky challange at the start. Late in the games, it seemed like Fate re-rolls were hardly ever used (or needed). By then, the Dwarf's early lead was maintained and hard to catch for others.

More play is needed, of course, but overall, Fate remains a mixed bag. If there are other plans for it, some of those should have been (should be) implemented in the revised editon or the upgrade to see a few possibilities.  My original concern and skepticism over Fate remains and begins to solidify.



#34 Bijan

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 12:33 PM

Sometimes the smalest changes has the most impact.

A very easy but sublte change to fate, will nerf it significantly.

 

Using fate: Roll 2 dices and keep one roll.

 

This rule/wording change will still fullfill fates purpose, helping you from death in ealy game.give you more controll. But in cases wher you can become a toad on a roll of 1 on a 1D6, it wont be such easy decision to use fate.

 

What do people think? Do fate need an erata?

 

The rules would then be:

FATE

Fate is a measure of a character’s luck and fortune.

Before any die roll, a player may pay one fate token

(returning it to the stockpile) to roll 2 dices and keep 1

dice roll (usually the most favaroble) under the following

circumstances:


1. Rolling a die for his character’s movement.
2. Rolling a die to determine his character’s attack roll.
3. Rolling a die due to the instructions on a card or board space.



#35 Roy

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 02:06 PM

I also playtested the new fate rule... broken.  All in all I experienced the same results as mentioned previously from JCHendee & RiCHiE.  You can also get a massive fate boost by getting and additional 2 fate at the temple.  As you now have a 75% of goodies from the enchantress with fate, and only an 1 in 36 chance of becoming a toad, it offers a lot of boons.  Veing able to re-roll one dice (holding the best one) is better than having to re-roll both!

The only positives I could find out of it was it that it did seem fair for movement rolls, and that it was also good for re-rolling for the command spell - that really speeds the finishing game off.

I think that Bajan's suggestion is a good one:  its nice and simple, and does completley nerf it. I would use it when rolling for the command spell over and over and receive some benefit from it, and in movement when the fountain and stream comes up.  Richies suggestions of disallowing it to be a toad is not enough I think.

 

 



#36 Gorthuar

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:14 PM

You guys are aware that all playtesting in the world won't do until we get to see how exactly the revised edition works? I mean, the only reliable characters to do it with are the Prophetess, the Druid and the Troll, since they're provided here: http://new.fantasyfl...ws.asp?eidn=243 Even then, revised Adventure and Spell cards cannot be taken into consideration until someone's upgrade pack and/or revised edition actually arrives...

 

I thank you for your time

 

 

Lord Gorthuar de Veris

Cult of Nagash



#37 SubElement

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:48 PM

Hey Gorthuar,

Yeah without fully implementing the changes it would work a bit differently, but I do remember Elliot saying that there were no changes to the Adventure or Spell cards. So if you use the newly updated cards from FFG below, the translations from a German version of the game and the space updates at this link HERE, you should be able to get a rather fair representation.

 

Wizard

Strength: 2 Craft: 5 Fate: 3 Lives: 4
Alignment: Evil Start: Graveyard/Cemetery

  • You begin the game with 2 spells.
  • You always have at least one spell.
  • You may choose to attack with Psychic Combat when attacking but not attacked by.


Assassin

Strength: 3 Craft: 3 Fate: 3 Lives: 4
Alignment: Evil Start: City

  • If you attack another player or creature then you may assassinate.
  • You may not do this if you are attacked.
  • The opponent may not roll to add to their Strength.
  • If you win you must take a life, you cannot take an object or gold.
  • You may not assassinate on the crown of command.


Ghoul

Stength: 2 Craft: 4 Fate: 4 Lives: 4
Alignment: Evil Start: Graveyard/Cemetery

  • You may choose to attack with Psychic Combat when attacking but not attacked by.
  • If you defeat another player in Psychic Combat and take a life, you may add it to your own lives.
  • If you defeat an enemy in combat, you may raise them from the dead and keep them as a follower instead of getting Experience/Trophy points.
  • You may add the strength of one raised follower in combat, afterwards you must discard the follower.
  • You can only use one raised follower per combat.


Elf

Stength: 3 Craft: 4 Fate: 3 Lives: 4
Alignment: Good Start: Forest

  • You do not need to roll in the Forest but if you do you must accept the result.
  • You may evade creatures and other players in the Woods.
  • When you are in the Woods, you may telport to any other Woods space in the same region as your next turn.


Thief

Strength: 3 Craft: 3 Fate: 2 Lives: 4
Alignment: Neutral Start: City

  • If you land on the same space as another player, you may steal a gold or an object from them.
  • If you encounter the Market, Market Day or the Village, you may take one object.


Monk


Strength: 2 Craft: 3 Fate: 4 Lives: 4
Alignment: Good Start: Village

  • Your faith allows you to add your Craft to your Strength in combat.
  • When praying you may add 1 to the result.
  • You may not use any weapons or armour in combat


Dwarf

Strength: 3 Craft: 3 Fate: 5 Lives: 5
Alignment: Neutral Start: Crags

  • You need not roll in the Crags but if you do you must accept the result.
  • You may evade creatures and players in the hills.
  • When rolling in the Cave, you may add 1 to the result.
  • Only roll one dice when trying to open the Portal of Power by Craft.
  • In the mines, you only use 2 dice.
  • You are not effected by the maze.


Warrior

Strength: 4 Craft: 2 Fate: 1 Lives: 5
Alignment: Neutral Start: Tavern

  • You may roll two dice in combat and choose the higher result.
  • You may use two weapons at the same time .


Minstrel

Strength: 2 Craft: 4 Fate: 5 Lives: 4
Alignment: Good Start: Tavern

  • Animals and Dragons will not attack you but you may choose to attack them.
  • If you do not attack an animal, you may try to Charm it.
  • Roll one die and if it is higher than their strength, they will become your follower and add their strength to yours in combat.
  • You may only use one charmed animal per combat.
  • You may take the Maiden or Princess from another player in you land on the same space.

Thanks to Bludgeon and BatherFodder from the old forums for these translations, and I warn that they are a little rough and subject to interpretation. Although all the translated  Abilities seem to be identical to the previous BI Errata Fixed versions, so that should be pretty much perfect, taking into account only for the changed, Strength, Craft, Fate and Lives if any.

If anyone wants to give them a try, it would be nice to see!

Thanks,

Sub



#38 RiCHiE

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:15 PM

We didn't play with the new character descriptions, but with new location descriptionsand fate points...

Althought there are some differences, I don;t think it would have changed the  game much, ecept made the druid even more powerful!

With a fate of 4 plus the ability to get full amount of spells in a woods space and being able to be evil, the druid looks a lot more powerful!

Thanks for the postings, SubElement :)

 



#39 SubElement

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:54 PM

You're most welcome!

I agree though, that new Druid ability is pretty darn hot!



#40 Gorthuar

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:12 PM

SubElement said:

 

I do remember Elliot saying that there were no changes to the Adventure or Spell cards.

 

 

Cool, didn't know that. The upgrade pack *does* contain quite a lot of new cards, but I guess they're just reprinted to correct errors rather then apply changes.

So, in essence, FFG has provided all the means to play updated Talisman without even buying the upgrade pack? Of course it won't be as aestethically pleasing as with the pack, but I still find it a bizzare practice. Won't the owners of BI's edition just use the freebies en masse, instead of upgrading?

Where did the Germans get the new character rules, btw?

 

SubElement said:

 

If anyone wants to give them a try, it would be nice to see!

 

 

If I manage to force it upon my friends in the near future, you'll sure hear about it :)

 

Anyway, from the looks of it, Fate indeed needs a nerf. Like reducing the amount certain over-the-top characters get... Will try RAW first, but I'll probably end up reducing everyone's (except for the Troll and the Warrior, and *maybe* the Prophetess and the Thief) Fate by 1.

 

I thank you for your time

 

 

Lord Gorthuar de Veris

Cult of Nagash






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