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#41 c8tiff

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 07:11 AM

Enjoy the game, this specially goes out to Y'all as i too hate scrabble, nice sacrifice

 

as the dm that has all the warhammer 1e and 2e books, all the dnd 3.x and all the pathfinder, and all the star wars saga, and all the Vampire books plus 9000+ minis - i'm sticking with warhammer 2e, that is until i get someone else to buy warhammer 3e for me, until then i know that amazon has it for $65 and i can use my prime membership to get free shipping, i will probably wait for it to be at the local used book shop as all the flood of dnd 4e just a week after it came out



#42 Y'all Of Cthulhu

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 07:33 AM

c8tiff said:

Enjoy the game, this specially goes out to Y'all as i too hate scrabble, nice sacrifice

Yeah, most guys would trade for something else, like something in the boudoir, or a night of beers with the guys or something.

I choose to play Warhammer.



#43 dvang

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:21 AM

@johnmarron & all

Thanks. I try to keep a level head, and try to discuss things calmly and clearly. It does no one any good if all people do is yell and call each other names.

c8tiff:

While in a sense I was "defending" 3e, I know and recognize that you weren't saying it was a bad game. I just think you are looking at some things the wrong way, and so getting a less than favorable idea of some things. I will try to show you a different way so that you might reconsider 3e as a campaign-worthy game.

i'm sorry if just being out of position for one round and still having to close with the enemy is a tough test of your tactical abilities

All it requires is a single Maneuver action to get back to engaged. Consider a Maneuver like a half-action from vx/DH/RT. So, you were pushed back a square or two. Now you need to make a half action to get back into striking distance. You still would need to close with the enemy in v2/DH/RT. I don't see the difference in this example. The advantage of 3e, though, is that you can perform multiple half-actions (maneuvers) during your turn, although you suffer a fatigue point for each one after the first. Some good tactical decision-making is needed there to manage those.

Tactical/Grid combat vs abstract:

I admit our group loves to move the minis and use the grid for our v2/DH/RT games. I admit, I was skeptical about the abstract distance rules of 3e. I was fully prepared to make a hyrbrid system that was quasi-grid/quasi-abstract, to give a more "tactical" feel. After running two games of 3e, though, I found as a GM that I enjoyed the abstract movement. Here are a couple reasons:
1) combat did not take nearly as long. Moving squares, counting squares, etc all took more time than the abstract movement.
2) Aided roleplaying. Rather than concentrating on squares, players described how and where they were moving. This was without prompting from me.
3) Aided group tactics. Yes, I felt it actually helped tactics. Look at it this way... when bound by a grid, the players are stuck with what they can currently do within X distance. With the abstract movement, players could say they "wanted to climb on top of the wagon and duck behind the coachman's box" or "hide under the wagon, and kneecap the Wargor when he comes close" or "I run up next to the Trollslayer and attempt to take the pressure off of him by using a Guarded Position." and so on. The players had more freedom to utilize, and roleplay (see #2) group tactics, without being hampered by "being 1 square short" or somesuch.

4) Less pressure to "get everything position in the right square".  This leads primarily into #1.  It was faster and flowed better. I could concentrate more on GMing and narrating than figuring out which square who was in, and which square the enemies wanted to move into, and if their weapons/spells were in range, etc.

Now, with this said ... there is absolutely nothing stopping you from running 3e with a grid. Nothing at all. The only thing you'd need to do is give a numerical distance to "engaged", "close", "medium", "long" and "extreme" ranges. Engaged is likely 1 square, close is probably 2-8 or so, medium 9-16, long is 17-32, extreme is 33+. Or something similar. There you go, ranges for all weapons, have movement be Agi * 2 (if you do straight Agi, probably reduce the ranges I proposed by half, since in 3e you can move between close and medium with a single maneuver action...unless that also abstracts to a run or full-move. hmm). Seems relatively robust, and this is just off the top of my head. It won't ruin 3e to use a grid, nor does 3e prevent you from using a grid. Don't let the lack of a grid in the rules mean that you can't use the game for a campaign! Everyone house rules at least a couple things for every RPG. Your group might feel the need to house rule a grid for combat. More power to you!

 

 



#44 c8tiff

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:33 AM

if somehow i wasnt clear, i see your adjustments and if i ran the game myself i will use all of my faculties as a GM to make sure that everyone, including me has a good time, that storytelling is appropriate, that social encounters a rich and fullfilling, and that combat, when it occurs is just a richly rewarding and grip of the seat scary.  If i use or dont use a map, use or ignore the abstract range system - I havent decided as for now I will hold off till I know enough people who will do more than just try it once, but more than likely because I feel that the mechanics that my group will "read" into the game will prevent anyone from being the first to buy or run, so i will more than likely see it at a con.



#45 Converse

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 03:46 AM

After taking part in one of the demos (I was a roadwarden), I have to say that I was definitely underwhelmed. It didn't have the same feel as previous versions, wasn't as enjoyable, and the gimmicky bits and pieces were just distracting - no real roleplaying went on because everyone was too concerned with what card they should be using or what token should go where. I know the boardgame / rpg argument is getting a bit boring, but to be honest, that's pretty much how it played - too much time tracking bits of card and not enough actually roleplaying.

 

I won't be buying it when it's out.



#46 c8tiff

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 05:43 AM

just out of curiosity, did your character as the roadwarden also seem to have a very hard time getting enough successes to wound the mutants???



#47 Allavandrel

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 06:13 AM

Converse said:

After taking part in one of the demos (I was a roadwarden), I have to say that I was definitely underwhelmed. It didn't have the same feel as previous versions, wasn't as enjoyable, and the gimmicky bits and pieces were just distracting - no real roleplaying went on because everyone was too concerned with what card they should be using or what token should go where. I know the boardgame / rpg argument is getting a bit boring, but to be honest, that's pretty much how it played - too much time tracking bits of card and not enough actually roleplaying.

 

I won't be buying it when it's out.

I am really surprised you went to one of the demo sessions based on your negative attitude to the game in your past posts. I am sorry you didn't enjoy the demo, and I hope you find something else which is more your type of entertainment.

Best regards

Allavandrel



#48 Yipe

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 06:15 AM

c8tiff said:

just out of curiosity, did your character as the roadwarden also seem to have a very hard time getting enough successes to wound the mutants???

I know this wasn't directed specifically at me, but I thought I'd chime in with my experience as the Roadwarden:

I took over playing the Roadwarden right before the second battle started.  During that combat encounter I only used one offensive attack - Executioner Shot - which was directed at the Big Bad.

I made a decent roll with my pistol, scoring enough boons to activate the -2 soak penalty (-3 with the pistol) and inflicting a hefty number of wounds.  I was hopeful that my follow-up melee strike would take him down, but I rolled poorly and did minimal wounds (1 perhaps?).  However, the soak penalty took its tool and the other players were quickly able to finish him off in the same turn.  In that regard, I felt the Roadwarden presented herself well.



#49 Converse

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 07:24 AM

c8tiff said:

 

just out of curiosity, did your character as the roadwarden also seem to have a very hard time getting enough successes to wound the mutants???

 

 

 

No, not at all; if anything, I thought the characters were overly competent, but that may be because I'm used to v2. V3 felt a little more like D&D than WFRP because of that - everyone was scoring hits easily and wiping out the opposition, using their special feats etc.



#50 Converse

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 07:30 AM

Allavandrel said:

Converse said:

 

After taking part in one of the demos (I was a roadwarden), I have to say that I was definitely underwhelmed. It didn't have the same feel as previous versions, wasn't as enjoyable, and the gimmicky bits and pieces were just distracting - no real roleplaying went on because everyone was too concerned with what card they should be using or what token should go where. I know the boardgame / rpg argument is getting a bit boring, but to be honest, that's pretty much how it played - too much time tracking bits of card and not enough actually roleplaying.

 

I won't be buying it when it's out.

 

 

I am really surprised you went to one of the demo sessions based on your negative attitude to the game in your past posts. I am sorry you didn't enjoy the demo, and I hope you find something else which is more your type of entertainment.

Best regards

Allavandrel

 

I haven't always been negative towards it. At first it sounded like a great game; the more I learned, the less exciting it sounded, however. I still thought I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and give it a try since it was being run just around the corner from where I was staying, but in practice I found it less enthralling than I expected it to.

 

Don't worry about me finding some other game - I have hundreds of other rpgs that I own, including v1 and v2 WFRP, so I'll still be enjoying myself. :)

 

If v3 floats your boat, then I hope you have many happy hours playing it too - it just isn't what I'm looking for.



#51 dvang

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 08:54 AM

Well, someone stated in another thread that the demo PCs aren't "fresh from creation" because they tried the creation rules and couldn't replicate the demo characters.  So, they have at least a little bit of experience. However, I will agree with you that I think starting PCs are more competent.  Of course, I think it gets pretty ridiculous in v2 when an experienced character still only has like a 40% chance of succeeding in a task they're supposed to be an expert in.  Anyway, the enemies are also increased in power.  So, while the beastmen were killed, they also inflicted quite a few wounds on the PCs. Also recall that the Ungors only have 8 wounds, while the PCs have 11-15 wounds.  In my first session, 3 of the players were within 1 Wound of their Wound threshold and one of the three even went unconscious from going over.  So, it isn't less gritty or deadly than v2, it's just less a comedy of errors. In v2 it was a race to see who would actually manage to hit.



#52 Fabs

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 09:17 PM

EDIT: Hmm, something wierd here as i couldn'tr see nay of yesterdays posts till I posted, and then what I posted was superflous. So ignore this ;)

 



#53 NewTroski

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 12:11 PM

c8tiff said:

enables use of a mat and miniatures

That's cool if you like that, but I don't like my RPGs to be so restricted and board-game like.



#54 LordBael

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:59 AM

This is why I play several different games.  I try to play games that are different from each other so that I can get multiple angles in.

D&D is my favorite RPG.  Mainly because I've played it for over twenty years and it is the most comfortable to me.  D&D 3.5 was a fun system.  It had enough to satisfy my demand for simulation and still kept the traditional D&D feel that I had grown to love.  My biggest issue with D&D 3.5 is that it became a broken mess of splat books which players would abuse to break campaigns. 

D&D 4.0 came out last year and I switched to it and at first was underwhelmed by it.  Mainly because it felt VERY generic to me.  A lot of what I grew to love about D&D was removed.  Everyone had powers and did the same type of damage it seemed.  However as the months have moved on, I have poured a lot of creative might into my campaigns where I use what 4.0 gives me as a framework and my players and I add on to that.

That being said, D&D as it is today is mainly a wargame now.  It can be used in other ways, I add a lot of non combat situations, but the meat of the system is by far, in my opinion, the tactical engine.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  I love war games (that's how I got into warhammer, I play the tabletop game) and I love the tactical engine that 4.0 employs.  However I find that a lot of the players that it attracts, from my own experience, are pretty much 90% only interested in just the tactical aspect of the game.  When I throw in non combat options, one or two of my players love it while the other three or four get bored.

Warhammer 2nd edition is also a great system.  Sadly here where I am in the States, I cannot find players for it.  I own most of the books and they sit on my shelf, and even though it too is a very tactical system, the players here stick with D&D.  Mainly because a lot of people that I know have never heard of warhammer or know of its story.

And that's where the game really gets me.  Warhammer, above any other system that I have run or played, is about its world.  I am envious of players that got to play a lot of 2nd ed WHRP because I could never get a group going with it. 

The third edition is a new way to play RPGs.  And it scratches the itch that for me is a loose narrative system that doesn't rely heavily on tactical mechanics.  I love the abstract nature of the game.  I love the rules-lite approach of the game.  Yes it can feel like a board game.  That doesn't make it any less of an RPG.

In the end it boils down to the party.  If you are sat down with this edition of the game with a group of players that love tactical style games and need to push the minis around the table and have a very deep set of simulationist rules, this game will disappoint because the party will not be as into it.

In the end I use D&D to satisfy my need for tactical gaming, and I will be using this edition of Warhammer to tell stories.  I have a small group interested in playing and I plan on fleshing out some rules that are missing such as magic decks, etc with my own house ruled stand ins until an official release is made.



#55 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 05:24 PM

sounds like a great game , i'm tempted .
 



#56 arigatou

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 03:45 PM

I think thios is a better tools to enhance their social experience and the story mode, the intial rolls to oppose wargor or other boss.






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