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Magic the Gathering: Why I don't like it (and yet still do...)


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#21 Arma virumque

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 06:50 AM

Thanks to both of you for those thoughts.  I'm still concerned that the benefits (from "complicated card interaction") may not be worth the drawbacks -- but it helps mightily to have a vote of confidence, especially from self-professed LIFO hater.



#22 vermillian

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 02:49 PM

so what are the drawbacks of FILO or LIFO? really...

1/) Play ability:

2.) Anyone got anything to say about that? If no go to 3). if yes go to a new version of 1.)



#23 dormouse

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 11:21 AM

Well play ability is a huge overly-broad category.

LIFO can be hard for some non-CCG gamers to get. I don't think there is a board or minitures war game out there that uses this for example).

Card interaction can seem non-sensical.

These were my two biggest stumbling blocks.


"words are like arrows, once loosened you cannot call them back"


#24 Rakshasa

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:33 AM

I think the LIFO thing is entirely a CCG thing, and that because of the ability to interrupt, cancel, and modify the actions of other players using your own cards. Usually within a board game there are specific cards that do these things but because of the closed environment of the board game their application is much easier to manage. To use an example, Memoir 44's "Ambush" card allows you to attack an enemy unit immediately before it attacks you, resolving the effects of your ambush before the enemy's turn continues. It steps out of your turn and, because of the way it works, it cannot be counter-ambushed or cancelled and futher tactics cannot be used on it - it operates without creating a chain of cause-and-effect beyond its single instance.

With the CCG, such as Magic or Legend of the Five Rings, the wider and more freeform nature of the card pool results in the possibility that actions can be dealt with and reacted to in multiple unrealised ways. The LIFO system is one way of reacting to that, though - as has been noted - not a particularly intuitive way. In fact, at the most basic level it may well be that it can't work - a card used to cancel the effects of another card can't be resolved before the other card is brought out.

I find it easier to think about as a chain of events - but a lot of interpretation involves the "spirit" of the card in question as well as how the cards seem to intuitively operate. This can be difficult as different people interpret the same cards differently. I know I'm surprised by what some people say in terms of how a card works, much as other people are sometimes surprised (or embarassed, or not surprised) by my wrong-headed grasp of the rules.



#25 vermillian

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 05:19 AM

Its a computing term and also a military recognized term. Also accounting recognizes the term as well. Also inventory usage for spoiled goods... etc..



#26 dormouse

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 09:00 AM

 I was a Marine long before M:tG came out... I know all about First In Last Out. ;)


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"words are like arrows, once loosened you cannot call them back"


#27 Rakshasa

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:33 PM

I meant within the context of board games and such - not in the wider sense.



#28 vermillian

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 05:04 PM

I think perhaps Warhammer table top had spells didn't it? Negation abilities are technically FILO right?

I mean the Monopoly effect "go to jail" (first in) and then play and resolve "get out of jail free card"  means go to jail (the last out) does not happen (canceled by effects of "get out of jail free card"). :)



#29 Lafi

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:24 AM

I'm starting to understand LIFO possibilities in W:I and I love it :D

You say you nuke my guy, huh? Well I'm going to use rock lobber and lob that guy to your capital before you kill it :)



#30 dormouse

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 11:03 AM

If I'm going to be honest, that is precisely why I dislike LIFO. I would rather you have had to make the hard decision to do it when your character was mostly safe, not until after youfind out I had a way to get rid of him.Carpe Diem and all that. Fortune favors the bold, not the person who sits back realizes they missed a chance todo something and now wants to go back and do it over. That is what LIFO feels like some times.

Eric insisted on LIFO because he wanted to be different than the other two LCG's and wanted more card interactions, but I think it came at the expense of foresight and long range planning.


"words are like arrows, once loosened you cannot call them back"


#31 vermillian

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 02:26 PM

I enjoy being able to LIFO a Rip Dere Heads off when something bad's about to happen to my development cards... You can't do that in a non-LIFO game, and still have Rip be as good of a card as it is...

AND YET STILL that doesn't mean I'm not planning on using this card for reasons like that. I mean really, I'd put that card in my development zone for that particular reason, and held on to Rip for that reason too. THERE's your long term planning. Just cause my opponent can't see all the pieces of the puzzle and doesn't get to know its going to happen or not, doesn't mean that there isn't long term planning!

.... Darned hijacing of my thread! This was supposed to be about our love-hate relationship with Magic the Gathering! :)



#32 Lafi

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 05:33 PM

It's almost mind blowing every time I think of a new way to abuse LIFO :D

For example if the other guy is going to sacrifice his unit to gain some benefit (like from a quest) you can do an action in response and kill that guy before it's sacrificed :D.

Can actions be played in response to forced effects btw? I would guess that they can? And if that response would be to kill that unit with forced action triggering, is it interrupting or cancelling that the rulebook forbids? Would the effect still happen even if the unit died? Or would it just be so that there is no unit with forced action taking place anymore and that's that?



#33 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:43 PM

 For example if the other guy is going to sacrifice his unit to gain some benefit (like from a quest) you can do an action in response and kill that guy before it's sacrificed.

Actually, you can't do this. In order to PLAY an action, all costs must be paid. So, sacrificing a card for an effect is a cost. If you target it to be destroyed, well, you'll destroy it, but its effect is on the run already. 

"Once an effect has been paid for, that effect is a part
of the action chain, and the effect resolves even if the
source of the effect is removed from play."

 

 

Can actions be played in response to forced effects btw? I would guess that they can? And if that response would be to kill that unit with forced action triggering, is it interrupting or cancelling that the rulebook forbids? Would the effect still happen even if the unit died? Or would it just be so that there is no unit with forced action taking place anymore and that's that?

Forced cannot be interrupted means that noone can play anything before they fully happen. Playing an action in response means "interrupting an action". At least, this is the logical interpretation of the rules. 

Forced effects are the same as the usually known as "Passive effects", which occur with no possibility to avoid them as soon as their  "trigger" condition is met. 

Hope it helps. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#34 Lafi

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 11:04 PM

Thank you, learning something new everyday :)



#35 Goglutin

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 07:21 PM

 In his first years, MTG was a very innovative and interesting game (and a affordable one).  But today the game is nothing but a shadow of himself.

I quit MTG after the indestructible power got out.  The designers were out of breath for the game and they chose to create stupid cards with stupids powers (this began with Urza's Saga).  I was more a casual player than a competitive one (I liked thematic decks like Gobbos, Elves, Undeads...) and I really disliked competitive play (the same is true with WHI).  I was tired of seeing those kids playing with the same type 2 deck because it was the last year championship world winner.  

The price of cards began to be ridiculous too... 1000$ for a piece of cardboard (damn I could have an LCD screen for this price !!!)... the re-seller saw that fanatics were vulnerable and they exploited it to the end.  50$ for a dual land !!! This is an uncommon dude !!! 5$ for a rancor !!! Its a f...k.ng common !!!  But when its time to sell your cards they dont want to pay more than 20% of their value (if you're lucky).  The pro-value of cards is a big joke. I heard that WOTC created a new rarity (super rare)... another trick to sell more boosters than ever.  I always disliked this company and their vision of marketing (they totally ruined what was D&D with the 4th edition) just because they wanted to expand games to new players they just put aside what have made those games run for many years.  WOTC and re-sellers are vampires craving for your cash and this disgust me.  But it seems I'm alone to think that as more and more players buy their products.

It's my opinion.  Just an opinion.  Play it if you like it but be careful not to get caught in their ''money-maker'' attitude.

 

 

 



#36 DarkestWay

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 08:32 AM

My first ccg was marvels overpower had a billion cards but the game was bad I don't know why i played it lol



#37 KurganDK

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:29 AM

Like it (Magic the Gathering, that is).

Well, not really the true version of MtG, as I've mostly played the excellent Duels of the Planeswalkers 2012 and the original Duels of the Planeswalkers for X-Box (highly recommended), but it's close enough.

Like the balance and huge variety of MtG. Also, the flavor of the cards and the generally great content design.

Really dislike the fact that $ is so important in the paper version (not a problem in Duels, which is really reasonably priced). Also mana drought/flood can be incredibly annoying, as well as the (usually) slow pace with 1 card drawn as a norm and creatures entering the battlefield tapped - all of which WHI has neat solutions to, in my opinion.



#38 Tetrishan

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:09 AM

 Magic I think for quite a few card and board gamers was the "gateway drug" of choice. It was a great game till they kept adding more and more rules to the point of being lost under them all. I also think a lot of the later cards forced you to "upgrade" far too much,I realize most games do this but Magic was over the top. The cost was a big downside hehe, ever notice it was always just one more booster pack .






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