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The state of our Hobby


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#61 Matt in the Hat

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:06 PM

Phew... quite the thread.

It is pretty tough to resist commenting on the craziness though... so just a really quick, really late thought:

The fact of the matter is, you don't get to choose to 'evaluate' full versions of whatever you want. It is illegal. Seriously. People made a product, and they made conditions for that product's sale and use, and the law agreed. If you feel that you should be able to evaluate any product you would like to, and try it out in full, for as long as you want, with no conditions whatsoever, you should get started on changing those laws - contact your local representative. Good luck with that. In the meantime, you are breaking the law.  

Anyways, back to the topic at hand:

Pen and paper games were always pretty niche - same as comic books, tabletop miniatures and collectible card games - they definately appeal to a certain kind of person (fortunately I happen to be one of those people...). There are fads, or hit products, and once in a while one or more of these genres will shoot up in popularity for a while. I think overall the non electronic games industry is pretty healthy - and it is easier than ever to self publish a boardgame or a pen & paper game or a card game etc. Companies are taking risks, trying new things, adapting to changing market conditions etc. - I think it is a pretty exciting time to be a gamer : ).



#62 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:15 AM

Matt in the Hat said:

 

Phew... quite the thread.

It is pretty tough to resist commenting on the craziness though... so just a really quick, really late thought:

The fact of the matter is, you don't get to choose to 'evaluate' full versions of whatever you want. It is illegal. Seriously. People made a product, and they made conditions for that product's sale and use, and the law agreed. If you feel that you should be able to evaluate any product you would like to, and try it out in full, for as long as you want, with no conditions whatsoever, you should get started on changing those laws - contact your local representative. Good luck with that. In the meantime, you are breaking the law.  

 

 

Laws aren't constants. They change all the time, there's no valid reason to follow every law if you can get away with breaking them. No one does really. Most people only follow the laws which makes sense to them. For instance, you don't just go out and shoot people on the street and you can pretty easily understand why it is illegal to do so. However laws that has been instituted by greedy corporate capitalists that wish to shaft their customers completely, does not make the same kind of sense.

Besides, the laws look a bit different here in my country than it does in the states, and generally piracy doesn't even warrant the attention of the police and no organisation can even begin to issue a lawsuit unless they have proof of a crime (you see, here we don't just let anyone sue anyone else for anything like they do in the US, where you can sue McDonalds if you burn your tounge on their apple pie and similar stunts. Here you have to have a solid case and proof from the beginning before you are even allowed to sue). The courts here won't even touch it. And since it is illegal for private organisations (and even most governmental organisations) to monitor individuals internet traffic, it is pretty much impossible for them to acquire sufficient evidence to their cause.

So some actions might be illegal, but the law is written as such so that it is pretty much impossible to prove that the particular crime has been commited. Which is great actually. Not because it gives the middle finger to greedy corporations (although it is a nice bonus), but because a change in those laws would inhibit the individuals privacy in a most oppressive manner, which would be far worse and it would strike at everyone and not just internet pirates.

Just because something is in the law, it doesn't make it right. And quite frankly I don't believe you have followed the law all the time for every moment of your life either. In fact you've probably broken laws without even knowing it, it's just that they were so miniscule and unknown that neither you or the police would realize it.

That being said, I will from now on completely ignore any remarks about piracy in this thread, due to the mods request. From now on it's water under the bridge, so get back on topic people!



#63 onlinechaos

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:24 AM

Emirikol said:

It appears that it would have been smarter to make 3E a boardgame...

 

jh

Emirikol said:

It appears that it would have been smarter to make 3E a boardgame...

 

jh

 

They did. 

3E requires all these playing pieces and cards just like all other board games.  Where as a true roleplaying game only requires your imagination and perhaps some dice and pencil.  Technically any board game could be considered a roleplaying game if you personify and act out the role of the playing piece you are playing.  FFG is expecting people to do so with this latest board game so they can qualify it as a RPG.



#64 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 07:11 AM

onlinechaos said:

They did. 

3E requires all these playing pieces and cards just like all other board games.  Where as a true roleplaying game only requires your imagination and perhaps some dice and pencil.  Technically any board game could be considered a roleplaying game if you personify and act out the role of the playing piece you are playing.  FFG is expecting people to do so with this latest board game so they can qualify it as a RPG.

But for crying out loud, people!

A boardgame is a boardgame, an RPG is an RPG. It doesn't matter what kind of tools (character sheets, rulebooks, tokens, cards, measuring sticks, dice etc. etc.) an RPG use, it's still an RPG, NOT a boardgame.

Any similarities you make between WFRP 3rd edition and a boardgame is nothing more than a quirk of your personal imagination...



#65 onlinechaos

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 07:33 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

onlinechaos said:

 

They did. 

3E requires all these playing pieces and cards just like all other board games.  Where as a true roleplaying game only requires your imagination and perhaps some dice and pencil.  Technically any board game could be considered a roleplaying game if you personify and act out the role of the playing piece you are playing.  FFG is expecting people to do so with this latest board game so they can qualify it as a RPG.

 

 

But for crying out loud, people!

A boardgame is a boardgame, an RPG is an RPG. It doesn't matter what kind of tools (character sheets, rulebooks, tokens, cards, measuring sticks, dice etc. etc.) an RPG use, it's still an RPG, NOT a boardgame.

Any similarities you make between WFRP 3rd edition and a boardgame is nothing more than a quirk of your personal imagination...

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.



#66 Necrozius

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 07:47 AM

onlinechaos said:

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

You mean that you play your rpgs without any player aids at all?

You don't even offer maps or handouts to the players?

Your battle scenes couldn't have been that complex without even a piece of paper with "X"s to indicate bad guys and squiggles to represent obstacles.

It's been said many times that the cards are player aids. They are meant to reduce the times that you have to reference rules in the book, and they remove clutter from your character sheet.



#67 onlinechaos

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:10 AM

Necrozius said:

onlinechaos said:

 

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

 

 

You mean that you play your rpgs without any player aids at all?

You don't even offer maps or handouts to the players?

Your battle scenes couldn't have been that complex without even a piece of paper with "X"s to indicate bad guys and squiggles to represent obstacles.

It's been said many times that the cards are player aids. They are meant to reduce the times that you have to reference rules in the book, and they remove clutter from your character sheet.

So instead we clutter the table with stance rings, cards, stands, puzzle piece interlocking what nots and have less room for real useful aids like battle map and minitures.  Most people like character sheets that you can fold up and take home with you after the game.  You have to use their required aids or go thru a worst nightmare then any RPG character creation was by transfering all that playing piece and card crap to paper. 



#68 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:17 AM

onlinechaos said:

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

 

 

ROLPELAYING only requires your imagination. But you keep forgetting about the "G" in the word "RPG", namely the GAMING aspect. Which of course isn't really required in roleplaying at all, but most rpg's have REQUIRED game mechanics included in the game, in order to make it balanced and not slaved to the arbitrary imagination fo the roleplayers.

This roleplaying GAME have a few new ways tio deal with game mechanics, which includes a new sort of gear. That does not make it a board game. First of all, where is the BOARD needed to play it? So far I haven't seen much in the way of an actual board in WFRP 3rd ed.

It's not me whose delusional here. You are. And your delusion clearly stems from bitterness, that companies try new approaches to making roleplaying games...



#69 onlinechaos

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:33 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

onlinechaos said:

 

 

You mean it requires your personal imagination to see it as not a board game. Keep deluding yourself if you wish. Board games require playing pieces, roleplaying games do not. Roleplaying games actually only require your imagination, you can technically play them with no dice, book or pencil. These playing pieces which are suppose to immerse you in the game are only distractions from the actual roleplay, but I suppose many “roleplayers” play their games as nothing more then dungeon crawls killing creatures and collecting loot. Basically video games in paper/dice form. I blame WotC D&D for that, not FFG. FFG is just taking it to an all new low.

 

 

ROLPELAYING only requires your imagination. But you keep forgetting about the "G" in the word "RPG", namely the GAMING aspect. Which of course isn't really required in roleplaying at all, but most rpg's have REQUIRED game mechanics included in the game, in order to make it balanced and not slaved to the arbitrary imagination fo the roleplayers.

This roleplaying GAME have a few new ways tio deal with game mechanics, which includes a new sort of gear. That does not make it a board game. First of all, where is the BOARD needed to play it? So far I haven't seen much in the way of an actual board in WFRP 3rd ed.

It's not me whose delusional here. You are. And your delusion clearly stems from bitterness, that companies try new approaches to making roleplaying games...

Go look again the the information released on the game so far, it clearly has a board that is your character card that you build interlocking playing pieces together to develep your character and move counters on.  It is pretty much required to play.  Besides many games classify as board games and don't have actual boards.  You're delusional for buying into it their mony making scheme to require you to purchase all these expensive playing pieces.  There are limitless ways to come up with game mechanics in a RPG without the requirement and purchase of additional playing pieces.  It wasn't done to improve the game, it was done to scam more money from you.  To make you become dependant on their playing pieces to actually play the game.  Oh you lost a die, well you have to buy a new set from FFG.  Need another set of cards for a new player, well buy a new box set from FFG, though I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll come out with suppliment playing pieces you can buy seperately eventually. 



#70 donbaloo

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:41 AM

onlinechaos said:

 


...and have less room for real useful aids like battle map and minitures.  

 

Man, you were on a roll onlinechaos, you had me thinking you were really old school...like "Cops and Robbers" and "Cowboys and Indians" oldschool.  But then you went and lost all your minimalist cred with that bit.

You can add whatever bits and bobs you want to an RPG but it can't become a boardgame until you've limited the actions of the players within the game to a finite number, all of which contribute to a well defined endgame result.  So far we've seen nothing that would indicate players are limited in any way from having their characters do whatever they want them to within the game itself.  Cards and tokens doth not a boardgame make.

Edit:  Anyone else having a rough go of quoting other posts in this forum?



#71 onlinechaos

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:56 AM

You are limited though, limited by what playing pieces you have.  Oh and if you don't buy their suppliments you're limited on the careers and races you can play.  They purposely limit the content so you buy all their suppliments let alone create a limit based on the playing pieces they give you.  You can't just buy a book with the basic mechanics and play.  You have to buy all these little pieces, which they are hoping you loose so you can buy more pieces to replace them.  Talk about a money pit.  Perhaps with enough suckers that, from this thread obviously exist, it'll support the game for a while.  It is still doomed to fail though, most role players have enough sense to buy into it.



#72 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:04 AM

onlinechaos said:

 

 

Go look again the the information released on the game so far, it clearly has a board that is your character card that you build interlocking playing pieces together to develep your character and move counters on.  It is pretty much required to play.  Besides many games classify as board games and don't have actual boards.  You're delusional for buying into it their mony making scheme to require you to purchase all these expensive playing pieces.  There are limitless ways to come up with game mechanics in a RPG without the requirement and purchase of additional playing pieces.  It wasn't done to improve the game, it was done to scam more money from you.  To make you become dependant on their playing pieces to actually play the game.  Oh you lost a die, well you have to buy a new set from FFG.  Need another set of cards for a new player, well buy a new box set from FFG, though I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll come out with suppliment playing pieces you can buy seperately eventually. 

You're clearly not that well informed of manufacture costs. Casting plastic dice and counters is actually a pretty cheap affair. The majority of the high price here is taken up by the FOUR books included in the box. If it is the same high quality prints like other books from FFG then it's no wonder why it's expensive.

So your "argument" of FFG trying to scam people out of their money by buying "expensive" gaming pieces is pretty moot.

If you're gonna go all corporate conspiracy theory on us, then you could at least check your facts about the costs before making such claims...



#73 Necrozius

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:06 AM

onlinechaos said:

You are limited though, limited by what playing pieces you have.  Oh and if you don't buy their suppliments you're limited on the careers and races you can play.  They purposely limit the content so you buy all their suppliments let alone create a limit based on the playing pieces they give you.  You can't just buy a book with the basic mechanics and play.  You have to buy all these little pieces, which they are hoping you loose so you can buy more pieces to replace them.  Talk about a money pit.  Perhaps with enough suckers that, from this thread obviously exist, it'll support the game for a while.  It is still doomed to fail though, most role players have enough sense to buy into it.

I'm not certain that things will be as dire as you think.

The base game will have all the basics. If you WANT extra careers, you can buy the expansion, but FFG isn't holding a gun to your head.

But then again, my opinion is null and void because I'm just a sucker.



#74 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:07 AM

onlinechaos said:

You are limited though, limited by what playing pieces you have.  Oh and if you don't buy their suppliments you're limited on the careers and races you can play.  They purposely limit the content so you buy all their suppliments let alone create a limit based on the playing pieces they give you.  You can't just buy a book with the basic mechanics and play.  You have to buy all these little pieces, which they are hoping you loose so you can buy more pieces to replace them.  Talk about a money pit.  Perhaps with enough suckers that, from this thread obviously exist, it'll support the game for a while.  It is still doomed to fail though, most role players have enough sense to buy into it.

Actually the game is designed to be fully playable straight out of the box, which is the whole point of making it a box in the first place...



#75 Foolishboy

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:11 AM

donbaloo said:

Edit:  Anyone else having a rough go of quoting other posts in this forum?

The one FFG constant is the poor forum software. A lot of people just copy and paste the quotes in italic text rather than struggle with the forum quoting.



#76 DeathFromAbove

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:44 AM

 The issue, for me, isn't the price (still high for the main box). If I want that game and I have the money, I'll buy it.

 

The way I see it is how they are selling an hybrid between RPG/boardgame/card game. Like and RPG.

Perhaps I'm an old gamer, but these are "experiments" that torn apart my belowed hobby, on the long run. The focus of these new games (genres?) are more and more towards fighting, cards, miniatures, boards, etc.

More and more merchandise and the like, sporting very little substance, very little innovation in how you immerse yourself in a world of imagination.

Games like D&D 4th aren't, Imho, an example of game design geniuses. Not they are RPG anymore. They are other games. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

To me a good designed world, described in details with flavour and peculiarities, with ad-hoc rules that catch the world's feel and makes we wonder... are way more important than using a card for reading my class/career/whatever.

It's more important how I use my dice, instead of using a die with an hammer or star drawn on it.

 

 



#77 onlinechaos

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:42 AM

Well there is no denying the hobby as we know is dead again and will no longer be supported except by the true fans with fan material, nothing new really. Considering FFG still has the license there isn’t any hope of a revival at this time.

There is a game called Battlestations which is a hybrid board game and roleplay game sort of like this new 3E is. They make no claims to being a RPG though and it is a fun game for what it is. Hell if 3E was a new game that wasn’t replacing my favorite RPG then I would be happy for the possibility of it bringing more players to the game. I do not like seeing this type of a trend though in the RPG market. Even though the individual pieces may eventually be sold separately at a cheaper price (no word of FFG doing this though) it does add up. Call it conspiracy if you want, but if you think they were not considering the implications of proprietary playing pieces that make your character a total pain to manage if you don’t use, then you’re mistaken. If you think they didn’t split up the player content that used to exist in one book into multiple supplements to rake in more money then you’re mistaken again.

I like seeing supplements that expand upon the game world, but I don’t like seeing a trend where they take existing material that used to exist in one book and rehashing it out into multiple supplements which forces you to spend more money buying all these additional supplements. It isn’t to hard to figure out why they’ve done it though really, obviously money, but traditionally it is the GM who buys all the additional supplements where as the players typically just buy the main rule book and be done with it. Now by splitting out the player content into these supplements the goal is to have both GM and players buying all supplements.

How can one not look at that and see a company taking advantage of a games fans.

What really should of have happened was they should have make the Rat Catcher’s Tale they advertised into this new game instead of replacing WFRP with it. It’d have received a much better receptions and support from the fans.
 



#78 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 12:02 PM

Foolishboy said:

The one FFG constant is the poor forum software. A lot of people just copy and paste the quotes in italic text rather than struggle with the forum quoting.

Somehow, I manage to quote without difficulty most of the time, however...


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I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.




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