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The state of our Hobby


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#41 lordsneek

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:54 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

I think that's a bad analogy. If you're an artist that's being offered a contract by a record company, you should make damn sure that the contract is something favorable to you. But most artists don't, because they're so horny over the idea of getting famous, so they're willing to get completely shafted over the royalties by their record company.

I don't really listen to those at all. Fame-loving attention-whores generally make bad music...

What if some people don't care about fame but instead just want to be remembered as someone great, someone that can make the world a better place. I think that some day I will be like that. Now you may say that it is a foolish if not childish dream until you are blue in the face but that won't mean it can't happen. As for the money, well you just need money to get by in today's society. It's a fact of life.   



#42 jadrax

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:59 AM

ymrar said:

So if you want to make a living out of something that you actually like, and people are willing to pay you for it, you're a *****? Wow! Someone's bitter...

To be fair, many Whores are forced into their profession by circumstance or misfortune, so I don't think its fair to brand them as being as morally deficient as pop stars.



#43 ymrar

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:06 AM

jadrax said:

ymrar said:

 

So if you want to make a living out of something that you actually like, and people are willing to pay you for it, you're a *****? Wow! Someone's bitter...

 

To be fair, many Whores are forced into their profession by circumstance or misfortune, so I don't think its fair to brand them as being as morally deficient as pop stars.

 

 

:DD OMG. Ok that's it. Now this topic has officially derailed a. lot. I'll stop right here.



#44 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:10 AM

ymrar said:

So if you want to make a living out of something that you actually like, and people are willing to pay you for it, you're a *****? Wow! Someone's bitter...

rather, if you EXPECT to be able to make a living out of something you like, and compromising what you like in order to bring in more cash, you're a *****.

For instance, I like playing RPG's, but I don't expect to make money out of it. In fact, I lose money to it due to buying books for it. Does that persuade me from not playing? No.

Why should it be any different with singing, painting, sculpting, writing etc. etc.

Here's the trufh for ya. While our decadent, developed-country lifestyle allows us to indulge in "fun" pursuits like listening to music, looking at paintings, playing RPG's etc. etc. We don't actually NEED it. What people DO need on the other hand is accomodations, food to eat and other means to stay healthy and living. That's what we NEED, and that's what money should generate income from.

Remember, that while we spend money on so much stuff we don't need, people in other parts of the world are starving to death. If they had the same amount of money we spent on **** like computers, RPG's, paintings, CD's, DVD's etc. etc. they could survive. But they don't. We're priviliged that way, and also a bit naive when you expect that you can make money of doing something that other people don't really "need".

I don't suffer from that kind of naive thinking myself. I don't expect to be able to ***** out my art for the highest bidder, I expect to having to work for a living in industires that provide people with what they need (not what they "want"). That doesn't make me bitter, it makes me realistic...



#45 Dave Allen

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:10 AM

Or maybe bands realise they can't...

Manufacture CDs, design adverts and album covers, create websites, book gigs, send out promotional material, manage road crew wages, etc...

on their own.



#46 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:15 AM

lordsneek said:

 

 

 

What if some people don't care about fame but instead just want to be remembered as someone great, someone that can make the world a better place. I think that some day I will be like that. Now you may say that it is a foolish if not childish dream until you are blue in the face but that won't mean it can't happen. As for the money, well you just need money to get by in today's society. It's a fact of life.   

 

 

If you really wanted to make the world a better place, then making money of your ideas would be the least of your concerns. People who want the world to be a better place don't sit around arguing over copyright infringements, they travel to third world countries and help the poor and war-torn people in any way they can. They often suffer for it, some times financially and sometimes they even die trying.

A person saying: "I want to make the world a better place... But also make money doing it" is nothing short of a selfish *****. It's blatantly obvious that they are driven by selfish desire to make money and achieve fame.

So please, spare me the hypocrisy and sanctimonious bull about "making the world a better place"...



#47 lordsneek

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:26 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

 

If you really wanted to make the world a better place, then making money of your ideas would be the least of your concerns. People who want the world to be a better place don't sit around arguing over copyright infringements, they travel to third world countries and help the poor and war-torn people in any way they can. They often suffer for it, some times financially and sometimes they even die trying.

A person saying: "I want to make the world a better place... But also make money doing it" is nothing short of a selfish *****. It's blatantly obvious that they are driven by selfish desire to make money and achieve fame.

So please, spare me the hypocrisy and sanctimonious bull about "making the world a better place"...

 

 

I can still accomplish something good in my own country I shouldn't have to go to third world counrties to make the world better. After all presidents like Abraham Lincoln abbolished slavery without having to personally go to Africa. So please stop your baltent name-calling and you will already have made this forum a better place. 



#48 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:29 AM

Dave Allen said:

Or maybe bands realise they can't...

Manufacture CDs, design adverts and album covers, create websites, book gigs, send out promotional material, manage road crew wages, etc...

on their own.

Manufacture CD's = oh really hard. Im not in the record industry nor do I belong to a band but still I burn CD's every single day for personal use.

Design advert's and album covers, create websites  = Do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you. If you expect to make a living out of your music, you should make damn sure you can hire the right people as well.

Book gigs = Not that hard, depending on where you intend to play. The local pub might just be an affair of speaking with the owner, who knows? The owner might have actually downloaded your song from your website and liked you. As for large concert arenas you do pretty much the same thing, speaking with the owners, telling them that you'd want to play there. If you want to persuade them show them the fame you've garnered online and how many downloads your latest hit has provided. Check their fee's of the ticket prices and work it out with them.

Send out promotional material = if you're famous online, you rarely have to. Besides, nobody likes junk mail anyway.

Manage road crew wages = either do it yourself or hire an accountant to do it for you.

See? Lot's of ways to make sure that YOU control the entire shindig, without having to sell your soul to a greedy record company that will treat you like **** and not pay you what you deserve.

But then you might say: "Well, Varnias. Do you really think that let's say Britney Spears wouldäve thought of all these things herself?"

No she probably wouldn't, but she sucks anyway so I really couldn't care less.



#49 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:33 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

lordsneek said:

 

 

 

What if some people don't care about fame but instead just want to be remembered as someone great, someone that can make the world a better place. I think that some day I will be like that. Now you may say that it is a foolish if not childish dream until you are blue in the face but that won't mean it can't happen. As for the money, well you just need money to get by in today's society. It's a fact of life.   

 

 

If you really wanted to make the world a better place, then making money of your ideas would be the least of your concerns. People who want the world to be a better place don't sit around arguing over copyright infringements, they travel to third world countries and help the poor and war-torn people in any way they can. They often suffer for it, some times financially and sometimes they even die trying.

A person saying: "I want to make the world a better place... But also make money doing it" is nothing short of a selfish *****. It's blatantly obvious that they are driven by selfish desire to make money and achieve fame.

So please, spare me the hypocrisy and sanctimonious bull about "making the world a better place"...

And the self-righteous rant is in aid of what, exactly? Whatever your beliefs regarding the state of the world and how best to improve it, such matters are a little weighty (not to mention off-topic) for a forum about the new edition of a long-running fantasy role-playing game.


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I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#50 lordsneek

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:37 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And the self-righteous rant is in aid of what, exactly? Whatever your beliefs regarding the state of the world and how best to improve it, such matters are a little weighty (not to mention off-topic) for a forum about the new edition of a long-running fantasy role-playing game.

You are quite right. This argument is going nowhere. I am sorry if things got off topic but this is getting very heated. So you heard him back on topic!



#51 ynnen

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:39 AM

This thread has gone about as far off-topic as possible. Please re-direct your energy back to on-topic discussions.



#52 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:42 AM

lordsneek said:

I can still accomplish something good in my own country I shouldn't have to go to third world counrties to make the world better. After all presidents like Abraham Lincoln abbolished slavery without having to personally go to Africa. So please stop your baltent name-calling and you will already made this forum a better place. 

You must have missed my point. The point isn't that you have to go abroa to make the world a better place. In fact I think charity workers who do that are a bit naive, because they really won't change the world by going to these countries as long as these countries rulers use the same oppressive and uncaring methods in controling the country in question.

My point was, that if you want to make the world a better place (regardless of what you want to improve, be it abolish slavery, or simply creating music that sounds a little better playing on the radio) THAT should be your main concern. Not the money you "potentially" lose due to piracy.

So you call yourself an artist do you? Well let's say that a kid in the third world who barely has enough money to eat properly likes the pictures you draw, and he have somehow gotten a hold of a pirated copy of your work. Do you think it's right to persecute that kid for copyright infringements, making him pay ridiculous amounts of fines in a lawsuit?

Would forcing a kid whose on the brink of starvation to pay money he clearly doesn't have, or throw him in jail just for having a tattered print of a picture you've made make the world a better place?

No. It wouldn't. I said it before, don't be so sanctimonious and try to pass of your own selfish desires of becoming famous, wealthy or being "remembered as a great person" as being "charity work" or that it would make the world a better place. It's degrading.

I know for one thing that PIRACY makes the world a better place. It takes away vast amounts of power that greedy corporations had monopolized for years and gives it to the consumer who have been largely treated like ****.



#53 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:44 AM

Yes, let's get back on topic (the previous post was being written during the moderators remark, so i didn't see it).

The pro's and con's of piracy are already well established in general, and now in this thread as well.



#54 Cynical Cat

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:56 AM

Steerpike said:

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

RIAA claims about piracy are complete lunacy and should be laughed out of court, but it does result in lost sales.  Not the one for one bull that the RIAA claims, but it does cut into the money that they make and RPGs aren't overly profitable to begin with. 

 

 

Which claims, specifically?

 

A Sony lawsuit claiming 75-150K losses per downloaded song.

 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/sony-lawyer-150k-damages-per-song-certainly-appropriate.ars

$750 per downloaded song being counter sued.

 

http://excesscopyright.blogspot.com/2006/11/constitutional-challenge-to-riaas.html

 

 



#55 Necrozius

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:02 AM

You know what I like about RPGs?

Telling a player that they lost their dice roll, even if it was a 01% (or 20 in DnD).

The look on their faces is worth all the years of putting effort into stories that the players hardly appreciate.



#56 Steerpike

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:35 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

ymrar said:

 

So you want to experience? and how are all these experiences delivered for you? That's right. Somebody coughed up money. You liked a movie? It had superior filming and effects? Somebody had to make them for you to experience it. So yes, you can put a price on experience. Some experiences come a lot cheaper. You want an experience free? Take a walk in the forest. Enjoy the sunset. Write a book (but for crying aloud, do not share it or try to make a living out of it).

 

 

Oh I buy movies that I like and know that I'll want to see again. Sure, divx rip's can be useful for evaluating if a movie is good or not (if I don't like the movie I delete it), but they don't hold much against seeing the movie at a cinema or the superior quality of DVD or BluRay. And frankly I like the look of having the real movie covers standing in my bookshelf. In fact, im quite a sucker for anything with "Collectors edition" written on it, in that regard.

It's just that I REFUSE to pay for a movie that I can't know for sure that I'll like. I shouldn't be expected to "gamble" on wether I think my money will be well spent or not. It's absurd to expect me to do that. Therefore I check out the movies on beforehand. Sure they will have awfully reduced quality in regards to sound and picture, but from that I can still make an assesment of wether I like the film or not, and if it's worth paying for to have a permanent copy of it.

But that's not how the movie industry want's me to think. They want me to base my entire opinions of inferior trailers that doesn't really reveal how good the movie is, but only shows a few amped up highlights in order to draw crowd interest. They'd rather want me to gamble with my money, like it was a game of blackjack. There is a chance I might be satisfied with buying the DVD or the tickets for viewing it on the cinema, but not a guarantee. And considering the vast amounts of crap that hollywood has produced the last few years, that chance for satisfaction has decreased a huge amount.

 

The problem with this is that you aren't Entitled to a movie.  If you don't like the way the movie industry presents their product, then don't watch the movies.  That's where the choice should lay.  Stealing the movie can't be justified.



#57 Steerpike

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:37 AM

Cynical Cat said:

Steerpike said:

 

Cynical Cat said:

 

 

RIAA claims about piracy are complete lunacy and should be laughed out of court, but it does result in lost sales.  Not the one for one bull that the RIAA claims, but it does cut into the money that they make and RPGs aren't overly profitable to begin with. 

 

 

Which claims, specifically?

 

 

 

A Sony lawsuit claiming 75-150K losses per downloaded song.

 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/sony-lawyer-150k-damages-per-song-certainly-appropriate.ars

$750 per downloaded song being counter sued.

 

http://excesscopyright.blogspot.com/2006/11/constitutional-challenge-to-riaas.html

 

 

 

They didn't claim those as 'losses,' those are damages and the statutory range is set by Congress.  A court certainly can'y 'laugh out' a claim for damages set by statute.  If you don't like the statutory damages, then you have to get Congress to change the law.



#58 Cynical Cat

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:46 AM

The 150K was damage claimed by Sony and the other is based on RIAA damage claims.  Remember,  I was simply saying that the claims of RIAA and similar industries are ridiculous and certainly 150K per son is ridiculous..  I was agreeing that RIAA claims are ridiculous, but stating that doesn't  mean piracy isn't responsible for losses.  I wasn't defending piracy or getting into legal technicalities.  The Sony case hasn't been settled by Congress, btw.  It's a claim in civil court that hasn't been resolved.  The law in question is one that the RIAA pushed for.  Its just an example of how the RIAA and associated industries' outrageous claims, which aren't limited to cases only to America.

And a mod has kindly asked us to move on from piracy, so shall we?



#59 Cat that Walked by Himself

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:14 PM

 

what they said ;)



#60 Necrozius

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 02:22 PM

Cynical Cat said:

And a mod has kindly asked us to move on from piracy, so shall we?

...unless it is talk about Orc pirates, that is.






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