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Suggestion for Deathwatch Collectors Edition


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#21 Psion

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 06:31 AM

Varnias Tybalt said:

Psion said:

 

Not saying fighting isn't fun; but if you make a campaign (or game for that matter) too combat-focused it can end up feeling a little flat.

 

 

I'd have to say that calling it "flat" is a bit of an understatement. Fighting can MOST CERTAINLY become extrely dull and boring after absurd amounts of it- Unfortunately this has occured for me when playing Dark Heresy, and after a while you just get sick of all the dice rolling..

Well, I tend to agree but I was trying to be diplomatic since every time we voice valid criticisms on the subject; it gets defended by Marine fanboyism.  But I have been there Varnias, I have been there.



#22 DocIII

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 08:49 AM

Eh, my issue is with the presumption that Deathwatch will be nothing but combat.  That presumption seems to stem from the idea many seem to have that renders Marines into one dimensional one trick wonders.  I think there is potential for more and that those that dogmatically insist that Marines are all the same,drones that can only shoot stuff and nothing else, are as bad on their own extreme as the "teh Mereehnz is roxors" fanboys are at the other.

Wait and see what FFG does with it before you judge it.



#23 DocIII

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 08:53 AM

Terminus_Est said:

That is what I mean as a joke about semantics. He was plainly stating Marines are Marines and are never inquisitors, he just did not correct the person fully ;)

Marines are NEVER Inquisitors?  Says who?

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines. 

Now granted over the years GW has put out several alternate origins of the =][=, but still... 

 



#24 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:24 AM

DocIII said:

 

Wait and see what FFG does with it before you judge it.

 

 

I always do.

But I will be more or less sceptical to certain ideas. Deathwatch doesn't strike me as an interesting one, and I've explained why in several threads. But I certainly hope im wrong. I might like being right most of the time (and most of the time, I am), but if im right this time it will mean that a crappy game gets released, and what good would that do? Im already a smug, arrogant and self-satisfied bastard as it is, I think I can take losing an amount of self-satisfaction if it means I get another good RPG to decorate my bookshelf.

So I sincerely hope that im wrong in this regard...



#25 Psion

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:59 AM

DocIII said:

Wait and see what FFG does with it before you judge it.

I already said that, still doesn't stop me from being skeptical.  As a chamber militant, Deathwatch is more limited in scope then say the Inquistion or Rogue Traders.  And Space Marines ARE trained first and foremost to be very efficient killers; that's not an assumptation, it's right there on pretty much the first page on any entry concerning them.  Roles like Tech-Marine and Apothecary are trainings a Marine can receive after he's proven himself to be a capable post-human warrior.  He is still first and foremost very well trained in the art of making things dead.  It's a very valuable skill in the 40k universe to be sure, but it's just one thing.

But my main problem is not so much with their possible inclusion, instead I'm wondering about something that is unarguably intergral to their lore, "And they shall know no fear."  How do you scare players who stuck themselves into the armored overshoes of people who are not supposed to have fear, have doubts in their abilities?  That is one question I have yet to someone answer to my satisfaction, where would the element of doubt, of uncertainity, that is important to all good roleplaying.



#26 Varnias Tybalt

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 10:31 AM

Psion said:

But my main problem is not so much with their possible inclusion, instead I'm wondering about something that is unarguably intergral to their lore, "And they shall know no fear."  How do you scare players who stuck themselves into the armored overshoes of people who are not supposed to have fear, have doubts in their abilities?  That is one question I have yet to someone answer to my satisfaction, where would the element of doubt, of uncertainity, that is important to all good roleplaying.

Horrible, unsubstantiated predictions:

-"Haha, battle-brother. Just look at the size of my power armoured d*ck. It's enormous!"

-"Indeed, battle-brother. It is as enormous as my power armoured d*ck."

-"As is mine, fellow battle-brothers!

-"Yes."

-"Quite."

-"mhm"

-"And with our enormous power armoured d*cks, we shall conquer the entire galaxy, and smite every enemy we encounter along the way!"

-"Indeed."

-"Quite."

-"But first, let's just gaze in awe at our enormous power armoured d*cks."

-"Good idea battle-brother!"

-"Indeed it is, battle-brother."

 

(The horror... Oh the horror )



#27 Infernal Teddy

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:05 PM

How about just using steel plates for the covers, with the Aquilla stamped in?



#28 Formorach

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:48 AM

The Deahwatch game....   in Flash form :P

(Yet, I know they're not Deathwatch but use yer imagination people!)

http://www.2flashgam...ribute-5330.htm



#29 Formorach

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:57 AM

And the sequel  seems...

 

http://www.2flashgam...bute-2-5335.htm



#30 MILLANDSON

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 08:33 AM

DocIII said:

Terminus_Est said:

 

That is what I mean as a joke about semantics. He was plainly stating Marines are Marines and are never inquisitors, he just did not correct the person fully ;)

 

 

Marines are NEVER Inquisitors?  Says who?

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines. 

Now granted over the years GW has put out several alternate origins of the =][=, but still... 

 

It has been mentioned in a few places that Space Marines can't be inquisitors.

This thread also has several reasons why this might be: http://www.warseer.c...ad.php?t=171103


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

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#31 DocIII

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 12:13 PM

MILLANDSON said:

DocIII said:

 

Terminus_Est said:

 

That is what I mean as a joke about semantics. He was plainly stating Marines are Marines and are never inquisitors, he just did not correct the person fully ;)

 

 

Marines are NEVER Inquisitors?  Says who?

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines. 

Now granted over the years GW has put out several alternate origins of the =][=, but still... 

 

 

 

It has been mentioned in a few places that Space Marines can't be inquisitors.

This thread also has several reasons why this might be: http://www.warseer.c...ad.php?t=171103

Read your Warseer thread.  Every place I saw there that said SM CAN'T ever be inquisitors was opinion of forum posters unsubstantiated by any authority.



#32 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 11:48 PM

DocIII said:

 

Read your Warseer thread.  Every place I saw there that said SM CAN'T ever be inquisitors was opinion of forum posters unsubstantiated by any authority.

The matter is simple to work through. Firstly, have you ever seen, in an official publication, a Space Marine Inquisitor? Nathaniel Garro and Iacton Qruze don't count, because A: the Inquisition didn't exist as of the end of Flight of the Eisenstein and their ties to its foundation are entirely speculative (it has never been stated by any official source) at this point, and B: it is as likely that they would have been the origin of the Grey Knights rather than the first Inquisitors.

Is the answer no? Thought so.

Now, while it's difficult to make absolute statements for 40k, it isn't impossible, I will give you that... but there is one notion that should always be considered when assuming the unprecedented - just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you should.

My response to the question "are there Space Marine Inquisitors"? If there are, I've never seen them, and consequently if they exist they're so rare as to be entirely unheard of.

Which, in an organisation as justifiably paranoid and relatively small in membership as the Inquisition, seems extremely telling, as far as I'm concerned.


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#33 Terminus_Est

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 05:45 AM

There have been multiple rewrites and MArines have always worked with the inquisition and some may have been or have lots of sway in it such as Battle Brother Captain Stern. However MArines are somewhat restricted and their roles are fairly limitted, afterall its what they are bred for. Also MArines also don't quite worship the Emperor the same way...



#34 DocIII

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 12:50 PM

I have no issue with ideas and speculation and rational argument.

As Nathan has said he finds the idea very unlikely and he says why.  I have no problem with that.

I just have issues when folks make absolute ALWAYS and NEVER statements without backing them up with any source.



#35 Charax

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 07:32 PM

DocIII said:

I just have issues when folks make absolute ALWAYS and NEVER statements without backing them up with any source.

You mean like someone who says:

DocIII said:

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines.

with no proof?



#36 MILLANDSON

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 12:21 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

DocIII said:

 

 

Read your Warseer thread.  Every place I saw there that said SM CAN'T ever be inquisitors was opinion of forum posters unsubstantiated by any authority.

 

 

The matter is simple to work through. Firstly, have you ever seen, in an official publication, a Space Marine Inquisitor? Nathaniel Garro and Iacton Qruze don't count, because A: the Inquisition didn't exist as of the end of Flight of the Eisenstein and their ties to its foundation are entirely speculative (it has never been stated by any official source) at this point, and B: it is as likely that they would have been the origin of the Grey Knights rather than the first Inquisitors.

Is the answer no? Thought so.

Now, while it's difficult to make absolute statements for 40k, it isn't impossible, I will give you that... but there is one notion that should always be considered when assuming the unprecedented - just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you should.

My response to the question "are there Space Marine Inquisitors"? If there are, I've never seen them, and consequently if they exist they're so rare as to be entirely unheard of.

Which, in an organisation as justifiably paranoid and relatively small in membership as the Inquisition, seems extremely telling, as far as I'm concerned.

That's pretty much my point.

Also, you say that no authority says they don't exist..... why would GW spend time telling us about stuff that doesn't exist?

Also, technically speaking, the burden of proof is on you to prove they exist, rather than us prove otherwise.


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#37 DocIII

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 04:29 AM

No, the burden of proof lies with those who set absolutes with no source.  I never said they did exist, all I said was that to my knowledge no official source said they COULD NEVER exist.  Since I've never tried to posit that marine inquisitors DO exist, there is nothing for me to prove.

As Nathan said, the story with the two marines and the founding (or not) of the Inquisition could be (and has been apparently) interpreted several ways.  Again, I have no problem with that.  Even if it were to be interpreted as marines as some of first inquisitors it is only one of several versions of the beginning of the Inquisition presented by GW, and as such is again not an absolute.

My only problem is with those why preclude the ideas of others without any basis to back it up beyond because I (or some collection of forumites) said so.



#38 T-800

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 12:54 PM

Having it in a metalic case is a good Idea IMO.  Design the case so as to look similar to the Ceramite cases on the Grey Knights marine armor, with the book having an old style locking latch so you need some type of key to open it.  And the cover of the book as well as the outer cover of the case being the same design would add to the over all feel of the thing as well.



#39 DocIII

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 04:52 AM

T-800 said:

Having it in a metalic case is a good Idea IMO.  Design the case so as to look similar to the Ceramite cases on the Grey Knights marine armor, with the book having an old style locking latch so you need some type of key to open it.  And the cover of the book as well as the outer cover of the case being the same design would add to the over all feel of the thing as well.

Thanks for dragging us back on topic



#40 Maxim C. Gatling

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:32 AM

Psion said:

Maxim C. Gatling said:

I really don't see Deathwatch as a stand-alone (role playing) game.  It would just be a series of kill-team missions using other-than-40k rules.  As an addition to DH, it's a fine idea.

 

I am also not quite convinced Deathwatch will have the same broad level of role-playing options the other two games have.  Granted there will be something for scholars and AdMech players (probably as Librians and Tech-Marines) to do inbetween battles but it would still be missing the social, investigative, and inflitration aspects of Dark Heresy.  Not saying fighting isn't fun; but if you make a campaign (or game for that matter) too combat-focused it can end up feeling a little flat.

Again, there is the possiblity FFG can prove me wrong but I will not be really satisfied until I hear the offical word.

What would convince me that Deathwatch would make a good Stand-Alone would be a good fluff novel. However, there have been many good fluff novels involving Astartes but none of them looked like RPG material.

 But it doesn't make sense, really.  Deathwatch is run by the Inquisition.  And Ordo Xenos at that.  They're not an organization unto themselves.  Grey Knights at least are their own Chapter, but take marching orders from Ordo Malleus.  (Deathwatch is made of Marines from all different Chapters, which is really cool if you like to paint miniatures).

What I think would be great (and it'd still be a big, thick book which they could Collector's Edition) is Deathwatch AND Grey Knight rules as a Dark Heresy add-on.  And post-Ascension, so that the other DH characters aren't rag-dolls in comparison to the Astartes.

If anyone disagrees, then explain how DW would make a good stand-alone RPG. Don't bag me for being a nay-sayer,  I'm just not seeing it.






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