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#41 MagnusSeter

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 12:07 AM

Nollaig said:

Surely much of the appeal of WFRP is the Warhammer world itself?

Yes, and the main appeal to me is the fact that it isn't a standard fantasy world. That is, I don't particularily need info on bog standard races such as elfs and dwarfs.

/M



#42 Aldred Fellblade

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:12 AM

Bloody Sunday's Best wrote:

My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.''

No it isn't. Previews are supposed to elicit a reaction, whether for movies or rpgs. They don't tell you the whole story by any means but they are supposed to provoke discussion of the product. If you had commented that people are jumping the gun with their judgements, as many others have said, I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. We don't know enough about the game yet, but we do know that it's something very different mechanically -which is bound to provoke a reaction. I even implied in my post that the 'oh no! not a boardgame!' terror was misplaced (and explained the implication in the following post).

What I objected to was your statement that people shouldn't express an opinion at all until after the product has been released. Dream on. Of course people can't make an informed judgement yet; we know virtually nothing other than that it'll be very different to its predecessors. It makes you sound like part of a marketing team seeking to prevent a negative buzz around their product. I wouldn't worry if I were you. FFG look to have been pretty smart on that front. They've gone with shock tactics so that from here on in everything will appear to get better.

 

 



#43 Blood Stained Sunday's Best

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 06:14 AM

Aldred Fellblade said:

 My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.''

No it isn't. Previews are supposed to elicit a reaction, whether for movies or rpgs. They don't tell you the whole story by any means but they are supposed to provoke discussion of the product. If you had commented that people are jumping the gun with their judgements, as many others have said, I'd have wholeheartedly agreed with you. We don't know enough about the game yet, but we do know that it's something very different mechanically -which is bound to provoke a reaction. I even implied in my post that the 'oh no! not a boardgame!' terror was misplaced (and explained the implication in the following post).

What I objected to was your statement that people shouldn't express an opinion at all until after the product has been released. Dream on. Of course people can't make an informed judgement yet; we know virtually nothing other than that it'll be very different to its predecessors. It makes you sound like part of a marketing team seeking to prevent a negative buzz around their product. I wouldn't worry if I were you. FFG look to have been pretty smart on that front. They've gone with shock tactics so that from here on in everything will appear to get better.

 

 

Maybe you missed my other posts or maybe I failed to be articulate enough, but my whole point was that people are jumping the gun with judgements. And worse than jumping the gun, their fears are spirialing to some sort of crazy froth that seems a little inane. The board game argument....the oh no it needs miniatures argument...... the its built to only support roll players..... the oh no they have forsaken the fans who loved Warhammer when they were a mere zygote to attract a younger hip crowd.....Betrayal at Judas' price! 30 dice.....30 pieces of silver. No coincidence!  

Yes, you can judge the preview. Yes, you can think the preview looks scary. Certainly you should express that but at some point the way people go about expressing their concern is no longer constructive. Just like the title of this thread...."I'm out." Why? Cause you saw a preview you didn't like? All I'm saying is wait till the product comes out before spouting the prophetic doom of the WFRP line. People should probably hold back on expressing an opinion about the final game until it comes out. They should express their opinion about the previews. I know its a minor split but in my opinion it matters a great deal. Hell.... if you wanna express your opinions about a game you've never played go ahead but don't talk in absolutes. Don't draw imaginary lines in the sand. You don't even know if the sand is on a beach or a desert yet.

you think the marketing team could give me a job? I'm unemployed. I'm great with positive spin. I could write speeches for a banana republic dictator.



#44 Le Passant

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:19 AM

Hello,

Please forgive my bad english. As you can see, I don't post. But I read when I can. What I just saw on the site...disturbed me. I will no longer buy WFRP products, and I'm a little sad about it. 

Not because I don't like evolutions, or because I don't want to spend money. Just because what I liked in WFRP is now, and perhaps for some years, out of question.

I saw people saying that the only difference is a new way to play, that the fluff is the same, etc. 
My problem with that is, justement, on the fluff. From what I see in the announcement, the first books will only contains things that already exists. So, there is, at least for me, absolutely no interest to buy this new game, since what I wanted to find in the books and supplements was the interraction between Warhammer fluff and the game system, as well as new, undiscovered stories and details.

They were room for things like Lustria, Far-East, all the regions between the Old World and the Far-East, Arabia, etc. I'm a little sad. Don't tell me tings like "go read novels and WB books". It's not the same, since I don't especially search saga, heroes and such, but details and background for a universe I like. Don't tell me "nobody ask you to buy this game", or "play the 2nd edition if you want". I have the 2nd edition, but I won't have more of it, no new things to know on unexpected areas or historical background. And since I don't want to buy books for a new system which will use the same thing that existing books, I won't buy later books that will, perhaps, study new areas and background details. Just because I will have no interest in it, since I won't have the first rule books.

 

I find that it's a strange decision, but it's FFG's. I'm sorry for myself and for others, mais c'est comme ça. I just hope that FFG will, in future, make good games that will tease me, as Arkham Horror has done.

 

Sorry for this useless and full of mistakes post. But I wanted to say a word, too. Perhaps there will be interesting things in fandom creations. It would be good to have entire areas fanbook for the 2nd edition, as well as those who want to play the 3rd could have their books. :)



#45 Blood Stained Sunday's Best

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:43 AM

Le Passant said:

 
I saw people saying that the only difference is a new way to play, that the fluff is the same, etc. 
My problem with that is, justement, on the fluff. From what I see in the announcement, the first books will only contains things that already exists. So, there is, at least for me, absolutely no interest to buy this new game, since what I wanted to find in the books and supplements was the interraction between Warhammer fluff and the game system, as well as new, undiscovered stories and details.

They were room for things like Lustria, Far-East, all the regions between the Old World and the Far-East, Arabia, etc. I'm a little sad. Don't tell me tings like "go read novels and WB books". It's not the same, since I don't especially search saga, heroes and such, but details and background for a universe I like. Don't tell me "nobody ask you to buy this game", or "play the 2nd edition if you want". I have the 2nd edition, but I won't have more of it, no new things to know on unexpected areas or historical background. And since I don't want to buy books for a new system which will use the same thing that existing books, I won't buy later books that will, perhaps, study new areas and background details. Just because I will have no interest in it, since I won't have the first rule books.

 

 

This is one of the better arguments against a new edition. I know there were a few other posters who agreed with this as well. I'm usually of the "oh well, don't play the game then" crowd but I can sympathize. The worst part of new editions is usually the perceived need of the game company to rerelease all of the core setting books. Obviously, this can be awfully dull for die hard players who already own the previous books. The argument I always heard releated to forgotten realms fluff was that as the game designers filled up the map and had to move further from core the reading audience purchased less books. Most people would buy a book about the Empire or Chaos because it is at the heart of the setting, only those people interested in Tilea or Lustria would buy those books as it is at the fringe of the setting. Before you attack me...... this is not my argument. Just one I've heard. I'm a completionist so I'll buy a book of fluff about a random island. I don't care. I'm voraciously feeble minded when it comes to book purchases.

Is there any way for FFG to address this properly? If they developed a product schedule that  was desgined to come out with one book that was basically a rewrite for 3e followed by a book that explored something left untouched in 2e, would that heal some of the rift? Just an idea. Don't know if it is feasible. Was 2e selling well? What prompted FFG to change editions? Anyone know?



#46 GreyLord

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:58 AM

Blood Stained Sunday's Best said:

 Hellebore said:

 

Your analogies are flawed. A movie with a bad preview will elicit negative opinions. The point of an advertisement is to ATTRACT customers. So either the marketing is bad, or the game is how its been portrayed.

Hellebor

 

 

My analogy is on target. Yes a movie with a bad preview may elicit a negative opinion but that doesn't mean it is a bad movie. You have to see the movie first to make that determination. So many people on this forums are knocking this game without playing it. Crying that its 4e hell and what not.

It is not suited to role playing!

Yes you can certainly say the preview is not good. You've seen the preview. You can judge the preview for what it is. But you can't say the game is no good. You haven't seen it. You haven't played it.  The advertisement could be bad for you.... for me... not so much. I like what I see and I may buy it. Don't mean because I like it, your feelings toward the preview is wrong.

You have every right to worry. The game is probably very special to you and its special to a lot of people. I get invested in games myself. It seems to me a lot of people are going a little to far. Express your worries but do it in a professional manner. More people, including ffg will probably listen and may tailor the next previews to discredit some of the myths.

You may very well be right. The game might blow. It might have all kinds of rules for restricting role playing. It might replace the GM with an automated adventure generator. It could use My Little Pony dolls to represent Chaos warriors. You might have to call ffg using a rotary phone in order to decide if your character can sneak past the city guards. Everytime your characters engage in a night time fight you might have to turn all the lights off in your house and read the dice with special FFG lowlight goggles. It might enact a system of dice rolls for every possible encounter..... or it might not. We don't really know.

Depends.  If the movie is star wars, and it has a star wars theme, then watching it to review it is pretty necessary.

If it's a Batman sequel movie, but the main character is Blackbeard and it involves Piracy on the highseas with NO batman...even if it's called Batman, people will be pretty certain it's going to be a TERRIBLE batman movie before even watching it.  It may be a good movie, but it won't be Batman.  Hence a really BAD Batman movie, they should call it Blackbeard or something instead of using a name to try to sell their movie.

As long as we are using the Movie analogy.



#47 Le Passant

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:01 AM

Blood Stained Sunday's Best said:

Le Passant said:

 

Most people would buy a book about the Empire or Chaos because it is at the heart of the setting, only those people interested in Tilea or Lustria would buy those books as it is at the fringe of the setting. Before you attack me...... this is not my argument. Just one I've heard. I'm a completionist so I'll buy a book of fluff about a random island. I don't care. I'm voraciously feeble minded when it comes to book purchases.

Well, in my case, I had no interest in re-buying an Empire/Chaos Books. 2nd edition are good on this. If I imagine myself looking at the book, I can't reasonnably think "wait, this is a NEW book ! With plenty of new and exclusive fluff in it !".

The argument is a double-edged sword. If people don't like Lustria or others, they would not buy a copy. But people whose are not interested in a (non-)new Imperial/Chaos book because it's basically the same, will not buy it either, nor the truly new things. Since things like Magic and Cults will be in the "first of new" books, there is a great risk that it will be, in regard of the fluff, the same as before, with other rules.  I'm sure I will be able to find a resumed version of the rules somewhere (not a pirated copy, but a resumed version, as it can exist for every game), and convert the fluff from the 2nd in the 3rd. So, 3rd is useless for me.

Plus, if the "heart of the setting" doesn't interest me because it's a revamp, I will never be interested buy the other books, even if the contains new and never seen before things.

 

It's all the difficulty of a new edition. And it's all the frustration an old buyer can know. And I bear no grudge against FFG. Just that this decision probably mark the end of my WFRP shopping.



#48 GreyLord

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:08 AM

Hellebore said:

All that should be answered by the product description, that's the point of a product description. You don't sell a product, especially one as expensive as this, by NOT telling people what it does and hoping they'll buy it. The point is they know what the WFRP fan community is like, they know what 2nd ed is like and their first method of selling it to people was in a completely different direction.

 

Now had it been released as a seperate game rather than as a REPLACEMENT for 2nd ed, i doubt people would have so angry about it.

 

I'm not necessarily against this game, but i am leary of it BECAUSE of the way they chose to represent it which is different to the previous edition and not compatable with it. There will be no more material for 2nd ed and anything produced for 3rd ed will be presented in this form, which given the custom dice mechanics is nothing like 2nd and not compatable with it.

 

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

All that should be answered by the product description, that's the point of a product description. You don't sell a product, especially one as expensive as this, by NOT telling people what it does and hoping they'll buy it. The point is they know what the WFRP fan community is like, they know what 2nd ed is like and their first method of selling it to people was in a completely different direction.

 

Now had it been released as a seperate game rather than as a REPLACEMENT for 2nd ed, i doubt people would have so angry about it.

 

I'm not necessarily against this game, but i am leary of it BECAUSE of the way they chose to represent it which is different to the previous edition and not compatable with it. There will be no more material for 2nd ed and anything produced for 3rd ed will be presented in this form, which given the custom dice mechanics is nothing like 2nd and not compatable with it.

 

Hellebore

 

You know what, spot on.

IF IT IS DIFFERENT and a different game of course. 

If it's the same...I'll say this, THUS FAR THEIR MARKETING IS TERRIBLE.

If it's a different game, or so drastrically different as to be unrecognizable, if they had called it something else, I think I'd be one of the first to jump onto the boat to try to get the game.  If it's different and they try to publish it under the Warhammer name it comes off as CHEAP...because they are using name recognition NOT to sell Warhammer, but their own game design and rather than let it sink or swim on it's own merits, they choose to kill another game in favor of their own.

I'm all for Warhammer Quest to be republished, would love for that to happen (don't think it will), but not at the cost of taking another games spot (and as a side note Warhammer quest didn't use strange dice with symbols on it, at least not the copy I have) and to get a new and better copy.  Heck, I'm all for another Warhammer RPG, I hopped on the chance to get the Special, Leather versions of the WH40K RPG, though I missed it for DH, got it for RT. 

It's not the game itself, it's the ethical and moral principle of it.  It's like if Toyota decided to buy Ford, and then put out a new Mustang, but instead of being based on the Old Mustang, they instead decided to rename their 4runner and call it a Mustang.  Sure it has the same name, but completely different type of vehicle.  That would upset Car enthusiasts probably FAR more then what you've seen on these forums in relation to Warhammer (this is actually light in comparison to the bezerk things that would happen with the Car enthusiasts if anyone was ever crazy enough to do something like that).



#49 ymrar

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:10 AM

Blood Stained Sunday's Best said:

Was 2e selling well? What prompted FFG to change editions? Anyone know?

Some years back board games were doing really bad. For general audience they took too long, were too complex and not "cool". Board games evolved to more casual, fast paced, cool games. RPG have been doing bad for many years now in every front, that's why D&D had their evolution. To attract new customers, to break from the mold, to become the new "cool" thing.

Change is needed and hopefully will bring new customers. I just hope that they wont forget old customers. Give us new supplements!

Actually... wasnt there a rumor about dwarf sourcebook at some point... could FFG really be that sly..?






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