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#41 vermillian

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 03:48 AM

Whose descendents ARE Lizardmen?

And to Fangs First:

Honestly, the factions of Chaos are more likely to volunterily work together than something like Dark Elves and Orcs teaming up... If I've got any handle on WHFB fluff. And also HOW DARE you suggest that the MMO Chaos has no character! The entire plot of the Chaos back story is that it is Tzeentch that the army is being led by. There are aspects of the others throughout the plot a bit, but its mostly the big Tz running things... then again I don't really read the quests that thoroughly...

Perhaps its also a bit 'chaos undivided' since I've noticed Chaos Magus are able to summon Nurglely things... ?



#42 FangsFirst

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 03:49 PM

vermillian said:

Whose descendents ARE Lizardmen?

And to Fangs First:

Honestly, the factions of Chaos are more likely to volunterily work together than something like Dark Elves and Orcs teaming up... If I've got any handle on WHFB fluff. And also HOW DARE you suggest that the MMO Chaos has no character! The entire plot of the Chaos back story is that it is Tzeentch that the army is being led by. There are aspects of the others throughout the plot a bit, but its mostly the big Tz running things... then again I don't really read the quests that thoroughly...

Perhaps its also a bit 'chaos undivided' since I've noticed Chaos Magus are able to summon Nurglely things... ?

Generally I would disagree. Chaos only unites against something big, other than that they tend to hate each other as much as any other foe.

Now that you say that about Chaos in the MMO it does make sense. The disks are a dead giveaway, but I guess the tank and healer are both generic chaos enough. The melee DPS does change his form which is very, very tzeench, but Chaos in old world Warhammer seems to get more random, chaotic changes (see the chaos beastmen) regardless of actual god. Of course the beastmen could be fully Tzeench and I just don't know, I'm only like 50-75% on WH fluff.

I think you could argue that it's still just Tzeench, as I could see a sorcerer binding another god's demons for their benefits.

As far as lizardmen, from wikipedia:

 

"The history of the Lizardmen began before the Old Ones arrived in the Warhammer world; some of the Slann traveled among the stars with their godlike masters. When the Old Ones arrived on the warhammer world, they settled in Lustria where they used the amphibious creatures already living there as slaves that would serve the Slann. Out of this the first spawnings of Saurus, Kroxigors, and Skinks were formed. During this time, the Slann spawned on the earth as the world was being shaped to how the Old Ones wished it. Armies of Saurus destroyed unwanted races as the Old Ones created the races of High Elves (powerful magicians), Dwarfs (magic resistant), and Men. Later, in the coming of Chaos, the Old Ones either went missing, or sacrificed themselves to try and destroy the polar gates and halt the never ending tide of Chaos in a cataclysmic explosion. Every race formed by the Old Ones fought against the threat of Chaos, including the great armies of the Lizardmen which consisted of millions of Saurus."

 

So, definitely they would be order according to this. Lucas, I think this is a different type of Old Ones, not the Great Old Ones, if that was where you were going. Also Lucas, who says they won't make single race decks? They've already said that you can do it, so why not do what they're doing with House Martell and Greyjoy: It's a smaller-than-core but bigger-than-chapter-pack release that has a playable [insert new race here] deck.

Or heck, they wouldn't have to even do that much, they could just start slipping them in to Chapter Packs and you might be able to quickly coalesce a new army. We don't even know how easy this is, as we have no idea (well most of us don't) what type of structures or other things there will be in the deck. I would speculate, but going by the previous Lang games, we have one with cards that are strictly resources and one where all cards can be used as resources, so I'll wait to get an intro to the game (which I'm doing with baited breath).

Heck, this made me start to play the MMO again! You know, mostly because I've just done everything that interests me in WoW, but still!



#43 vermillian

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 03:58 PM

Let us know your screen name and server on the off topic forum! (not like this isn't off topic enough as it is)

And yes. in the MMO Destro is most definitely the big TZ. And given that the Beastmen aren't playable, its rather irrelevant what side they're on. lol (though I thought I saw some Khorne motifs on some stones in some tier 3 quest on Order Elf side...).

We should probably be chatting abotu all this in Off topic forums.. lol

But yeah. Excited about the LCG! Steve said that you can play all dwarf deck (you know it might not be that GREAT or anything but you can PLAY it! lol), so I believe it!



#44 Lucas Blackwolf

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 10:06 PM

@ FangsFirst; I know they are other Old Ones (though you can't deny certain simmilarities), but there's the answer to which agenda the lizzies might follow. Of course they come in conflict with Empire in Lustria, for example, as, in fact does each race with eachother when it comes to the miniatures game.

Come to think of it, perhaps we see the whole Order/Destruction thing as too rigid; I don't think it's much about good and bad but more about different aspects of ambition; chaos' needs destruction to sustain, Empire for example needs order, none of which has anything to do with good and evil per se (even though Empire sees that as evil). It's more of a philosophical concept of what a certain race strives for, not some sort of allegiance in a political sense. In MMO the whole order/destruction dualism is probably a way to prevent some character parties that are a definite no-no from the WH cannon's standpoint. In this game it might be simmilar; some sort of a "fluff frame" and also a trick to ballance things out between factions. It's all speculation of course. :)



#45 Darthvegeta800

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 06:42 AM

As long as Disorder vs Disorder and Order versus Order is possible, i'll be happy.



#46 Crag78

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 08:46 AM

Why not? And if not,how about a neutral side for upcoming factions!!



#47 FangsFirst

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 02:02 PM

Lucas Blackwolf said:

@ FangsFirst; I know they are other Old Ones (though you can't deny certain simmilarities), but there's the answer to which agenda the lizzies might follow. Of course they come in conflict with Empire in Lustria, for example, as, in fact does each race with eachother when it comes to the miniatures game.

Come to think of it, perhaps we see the whole Order/Destruction thing as too rigid; I don't think it's much about good and bad but more about different aspects of ambition; chaos' needs destruction to sustain, Empire for example needs order, none of which has anything to do with good and evil per se (even though Empire sees that as evil). It's more of a philosophical concept of what a certain race strives for, not some sort of allegiance in a political sense. In MMO the whole order/destruction dualism is probably a way to prevent some character parties that are a definite no-no from the WH cannon's standpoint. In this game it might be simmilar; some sort of a "fluff frame" and also a trick to ballance things out between factions. It's all speculation of course. :)

The Lovecraftian Great Old Ones are chaos as well, though. Even though we've seen Chaos fight Chaos, I don't get why they would destroy a Chaos gate to stop other Chaos from coming in. The races they created may not agree with one another, but they are fairly whole and wholesome compared to Chaos races and what you typically see from any of the GOO.

Everything else you say I agree with, typically the armies in the Warhammer universe are fragmented enough even people who seem like they should be fighting on the same side fight constantly, both in Fantasy and 40K. The whole Order/Destruction thing is totally just a "plot device" if you will, otherwise you'd have to develop strongholds for 6 different races plus more for any others that you add, which is just a nightmare on too many levels.

It also helps the LCG (so we're not entirely off-topic) because there are that many more options for each side. But I'm sure there will be house-ruled "Racial tourneys" where you can only play characters of one race/army.



#48 vermillian

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 02:24 PM

Also it appears from the core of the game's mechanics that Order vs. Order and such would be possible...

Otherwise it'd be one of those failure games where I have to bring both a 'red team' and a 'blue team' deck so that my red deck can fight your blue deck if all you brought was a blue team deck (if you catch my drift).

That is an epic design apocalyptic failure I've seen implimented time after time, and continues to not do so hot... (star wars by decipher not-with-standing given its beginning of TCG history status, which sort of predates people's concepts of what makes a 'good' TCG).



#49 FangsFirst

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 02:53 PM

vermillian said:

Also it appears from the core of the game's mechanics that Order vs. Order and such would be possible...

Otherwise it'd be one of those failure games where I have to bring both a 'red team' and a 'blue team' deck so that my red deck can fight your blue deck if all you brought was a blue team deck (if you catch my drift).

That is an epic design apocalyptic failure I've seen implimented time after time, and continues to not do so hot... (star wars by decipher not-with-standing given its beginning of TCG history status, which sort of predates people's concepts of what makes a 'good' TCG).

I know Decipher followed this scheme for their Star Wars game, but I'm unaware of any other games with particular peculiarity. What other games did you have in mind?



#50 ChaosChild

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Posted 15 July 2009 - 01:42 AM

WotC did the same with their Star Wars game, light side vs dark side, which is one of the many reasons it died. Can't think of any others off the top of my head (at least not any that I've played personally). Decipher's new Fight Klub has hero vs villain for deckbuilding purposes, but hero can fight hero and villain can fight villain so you don't have to bring 2 decks to have a game.

On the order vs disorder front, STG did the same thing with WarCry and had the same main factions (High Elves/Empire/Dwarfs vs Dark Elves/Chaos/Orcs) long before the MMO used the same idea. Order v order and disorder v disorder were perfectly viable.

They also added most of the races that have been mentioned on here to the game one way or another, either as promos, in battle packs or in limited numbers in the main releases. Lizardmen, Wood Elves and Bretonnians for order; Vampire Counts, Skaven and Khemri for disorder; and Dogs of War, Ogre kingdoms and various other monsters as neutral units that could be added to either side.

Given that Steve's been on here singing the praises of this new game, and he's the one responsible for WarCry in the first place (still one of the finest CCGs I've ever played imho) I'd say it's a fair bet that we'll get things like this at some point (just not straight away).



#51 vermillian

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Posted 15 July 2009 - 06:08 AM

Another Thing v Thing-that-can't-fight-itself-and-must-fight-first-thing game is probably one of the best early TCGs out there aside from its binary play style, is Richard Garfeild's Netrunner. Oh baby that game was / is hot. Only two sets of it (three?) were ever released, but if you can get your hands on some of it, its hot. Both card stock, art, feel of the cards and rules. delicious.

Man we're off topic...

But yeah, like others have said. Thing vs. same-thing most likely possible. Don't think any gaming company is going to make THAT mistake again any time soon...



#52 cyberfunk

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Posted 15 July 2009 - 09:51 AM

NetRunner is pretty much the gold standard in CCG design, as far as I'm concerned, but it was able to pull off the two-deck system because the game is actually asymmetrical. The Corps and the Runner are doing things that are completely different, and opposite (in both senses) to one another. WIth the two Star Wars games, it was really just a consequence of the source material, and the two sides were doing essentially the same thing, but with different colored cards.

I think, in general, two-deck games create some problems, particularly in organized play. I think this is why the later games which have a storyline-dictated good-guy-vs.-bad-guy setup (Lord of the Rings, Stargate, Conan, etc.) have taken the approach of combining the two decks into one (or having them play simultaneously, in Conan's case) and going for some kind of race-type win condition. As long as the starting-player advantage is neutralized, this is just a better way to do things, as the alternative is to play out both matchups between two players and then have some standard to decide who 'won by more' in the event of a split.

So, I would also agree that it's unlikely WH will go with any kind of two-deck setup, since it seems like it's not quite in the same camp as SW, LotR, etc. in terms of needing a good vs. bad matchup for thematic reasons. And unless the two sides are inherently opposed to one another at a mechancial level, it certainly doesn't enhance the gameplay to have two decks.

 



#53 FangsFirst

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Posted 15 July 2009 - 01:55 PM

Oh believe me, I'm a Netrunner disciple as well, but you were giving the whole "can't play like vs like" in a negative light, so of course I didn't think of Netrunner, LOL. It is amazing, and it was probably the best CCG for a long time. I'm not entirely convinced that's the truth anymore. It did have one expansion before it died, and for a while it was on the ccgengine, which was awesome. It's definitely the single best CCG that WotC ever made.

Unfortunately we'll probably never see it again as it was actually the card game for Cyberpunk (which I didn't realize until years later), so because of the liscencing issues it's doubtful it would ever be remade. You'd think Wizards would wise up and reuse the engine. But I guess if it's not Magic... And I don't know if that horse will ever die.

The WotC Star Wars game was anathema to me for many, many reasons. I was surprised it didn't die faster, but it's the only one that I think we've listed that started off bad (I would argue the Decipher Star Wars became pretty bad overall after a few years).

I played WarCry, it wasn't bad. It definitely didn't take off locally for me as a CCG but I picked up the PSP game years later. It was pretty fun, despite the complete lack of a decent set of instructions (for the PSP game that is).

I think the first game that combined decks (that I can remember) was LotR CCG, and I think they just about perfected it the first time out. The game itself while I played it just melted into a rare-fest, but it would have been awesome as an LCG! ;^) Of course I think that's true for all card games.

I think we'll get like vs like but I don't know about the two decks. Both of Lang's other LCG's involve two different decks, and that seems to work, and the concept in general works as long as it is implemented well. Heck, it made Raw Deal from a meh game to my favorite CCG for a very long time.



#54 vermillian

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Posted 15 July 2009 - 04:07 PM

I think the first combined 'thing vs. not-thing' was Middle Earth TCG. NOT LotR TCG. Middle Earth predates that... and IIRC its the first to have combined the 'thing vs. not-thing' in one deck to be played by both players (as far as a TCG is concerned).

Lastly, Cyberpunk DID have a TCG made by Social Games. http://www.siberpuhnk.com/cpccg.html is its remains... NOT a red team vs. blue team, or even one that combines the two in to one deck... it was a weird convulted TCG. Demoed it. VERY confusing rules and an almost impossible deck design...

How much more off topic can we get?

... I WANT MORE SPOILERS! :) (for warhammer invasion)

 



#55 Killer Power

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 01:58 AM

Going back to the topic of WH Invasion: As a WHFB Chaos player I'm really looking forward to this (as I do with Chaos in the old World). I just hope that I will find some people for playing it. It's not that easy around here. ;)

 

And I don't think, that FFG will stick too much with the WAR setting, at least I saw a card of Valkia the bloody, which is a Champion of Khorne. Sure, I also saw a card with a Flamer, so I do think that it will be mixed gods for Chaos.



#56 vermillian

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 02:46 AM

Some of these other characters (a champion of Khorne for example) are also found in the NPC side of the game...



#57 Killer Power

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 07:42 PM

vermillian said:

Some of these other characters (a champion of Khorne for example) are also found in the NPC side of the game...

As you do Skaven, Ogres, Beastmen and in the meantime (didn't played WAR for a couple of month) Tomb Kings.

Well, I think, we will see if there are any "NPC-Units" (WAR-related). Also, we will see if the leaders of WAR will be present, or if it will be more in the "current" timeline with Acheron, Grimgork and Karl Franz.

I would prefer the second one. ;)



#58 vermillian

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 12:59 PM

Karl Franz is in the MMO... but as we now know, we've updates that they'll draw from all source materials, though mostly old GW books and their own creative whims (OH NO! lol)



#59 Penek

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 10:33 AM

I hope it will be good, as i loved Warcry (and was very sad, when its suddenly died). Overall idea sounds great.



#60 deejay

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 11:18 AM

100% totally stoked by this - looks genuinely exciting to me. When does it hit the UK? Or do I need to fly to the USA to pick up a copy? Or even a few cards / rulebook in a downloadable form to make a mini-demo deck so that we can get people excited?

[I am biased of course as an old WarCry hacker who stills has cards sat in piles on the bookshelf behind him].

Must go and kick Tearmat to make sure he knows about this...






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