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Darkside Bind Power


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#1 Danudet

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 11:44 AM

The Basic power says: If user spends any DS FP on this check, the target suffers 1 wound per FP spent.

If someone spends 3 DS FP, 1 to activate the basic power, 1 for range and 1 for Disorient, is the wound damage 1 or 3?


Edited by Danudet, 01 September 2014 - 11:44 AM.


#2 EldritchFire

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 12:02 PM

The Basic power says: If user spends any DS FP on this check, the target suffers 1 wound per FP spent.

If someone spends 3 DS FP, 1 to activate the basic power, 1 for range and 1 for Disorient, is the wound damage 1 or 3?

 

You spent 3 Force points, so the wounds taken is 3.

 

-EF



#3 Danudet

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:11 PM

Another Question, same scenario from above, then the user takes an incidental and commits Force to sustain the effect, does the target continue to be immobilized, disoriented and take 3 damage each round?



#4 EldritchFire

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:40 PM

It's unclear from the text to me. The book only says that the power remains in effect…does the "effect" include the wounds? I'd hazard a yes, but that's just my opinion.

 

-EF



#5 Demigonis

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:56 PM

It's unclear from the text to me. The book only says that the power remains in effect…does the "effect" include the wounds? I'd hazard a yes, but that's just my opinion.

 

-EF

I have interpreted it that way as well.

 

The rulings on some of this could be clearer though.


Edited by Demigonis, 01 September 2014 - 03:57 PM.

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#6 gribble

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:10 PM

It's unclear from the text to me. The book only says that the power remains in effect…does the "effect" include the wounds? I'd hazard a yes, but that's just my opinion.

 

It's also backed up by what we see in the movies - force choke certainly continues to "damage" people after the first "round" of effect.


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#7 EldritchFire

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:04 PM

 

It's unclear from the text to me. The book only says that the power remains in effect…does the "effect" include the wounds? I'd hazard a yes, but that's just my opinion.

 

It's also backed up by what we see in the movies - force choke certainly continues to "damage" people after the first "round" of effect.

 

 

I disagree. A round is 60 seconds. I can't recall any situation where someone was Force choked for longer than an entire minute. The base power is good enough for what we see in the original trilogy: A Force user raises their hand, someone else starts choking for a few seconds, and release. Nothing as drawn-out as a minute long choke.

 

-EF



#8 gribble

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:12 PM

I disagree. A round is 60 seconds. I can't recall any situation where someone was Force choked for longer than an entire minute. The base power is good enough for what we see in the original trilogy: A Force user raises their hand, someone else starts choking for a few seconds, and release. Nothing as drawn-out as a minute long choke.

 

I could be wrong, but I didn't think that a round was actually defined in the FFG system as being any fixed length - it's essentially however long it takes for everyone involved to act. And we definitely see force choke span multiple "actions" in the movies as vader questions/taunts people he's choking while doing it.

 

Also, there's no way that one round worth of damage would kill anything other than a minion in the FFG system, so the named NPCs that vader kills in the movies must have had multiple rounds/instances of damage applied.


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#9 EldritchFire

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:50 PM

F&D142: Rounds can last for roughly a minute or so in time, although the elapsed time is deliberately not specified.

So a minute-ish. I think it's funny that they deliberately specify a length of time for a round, then go on and say a time frame is not deliberately specified :P

-EF

#10 gribble

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 08:15 PM

Ha ha... so we're both right then, because they specify a minute, and then state they deliberately don't specify...

 

Regardless, I think the best definition of a round is "long enough for each participant to act once", and in all force choke scenes I can think of the participants and bystanders all seem to have plenty of time to take at least 2-3 actions.


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#11 Demigonis

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:14 AM

F&D142: Rounds can last for roughly a minute or so in time, although the elapsed time is deliberately not specified.

So a minute-ish. I think it's funny that they deliberately specify a length of time for a round, then go on and say a time frame is not deliberately specified :P

-EF

Rounds can (it's possible) last for roughly (irregular, uneven) a minute or so. The amount of time elapsed in any one given game round isn't deliberately specified by the rules. Rounds move at the speed of the plot.


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#12 Danudet

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 09:31 AM

So, the narrative: I use my 3 Force dice, activating Bind in a Force Choke, lifting the poor sap off his feet holding him suspended in the air, while I use the Force to strangle the life out of him.  I commit my 2 Force to maintain the effect.......but can only hold him suspended in the air???  Makes no sense, unless you make the player take an action to activate the choke again each round to do the damage, but isn't that covered by commiting 2 of your dice?  Seems to be a lot of wasted resources just to hold someone in place, who by the way can still take actions each turn. 


Edited by Danudet, 02 September 2014 - 09:32 AM.


#13 Dbuntu

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:32 PM

So, the narrative: I use my 3 Force dice, activating Bind in a Force Choke, lifting the poor sap off his feet holding him suspended in the air, while I use the Force to strangle the life out of him.  I commit my 2 Force to maintain the effect.......but can only hold him suspended in the air???  Makes no sense, unless you make the player take an action to activate the choke again each round to do the damage, but isn't that covered by commiting 2 of your dice?  Seems to be a lot of wasted resources just to hold someone in place, who by the way can still take actions each turn. 

That is also a little unclear in the rules.

The base power says "restrains and enemy, preventing the target from acting", then your first control upgrade says, "whenever a target affected by Bind takes an action..."

But the text for the basic power says "immobilize"

I'd say the text could use some clarification.



#14 Danudet

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 01:33 PM

I read that as the basic immobilizes, and the upgrade causes the Strain when the target takes an action.  The power strips maneuvers, and with the upgrade trying to concentrate to do an action causes the strain, along with the mental anguish that you can't take cover or close with your enemy.  Like the saying, "It's hard to remember the objective was to drain the swamp when youre up to your ass in alligators."


Edited by Danudet, 02 September 2014 - 01:34 PM.


#15 EldritchFire

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 01:43 PM

Don't forget that causing wounds is part of the base power: "If the user used any [DS pips] to generate [Force points] on this check, the target also suffers 1 wound (ignoring soak) per [Force point] spent on the check."

So does the commit option also cause wounds each round? That's the crux of the issue.

-EF

#16 Lathrop

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:46 PM

I'm going to say no. Partly because it makes the power WAY too powerful if you allow it. And also because Vader and Luke really just choke people for very short amounts of time, and I could see the ones that actually kill as being more a part of the mastery's critical effect. If you allowed it to be a continuous thing, then you basically open up this scenario:

 

A player rolls 3 dark side on 3 dice. They use 1 to activate it, and 2 to hit 3 other targets in range. Against all four targets, they now take 3 points of wound (ignoring soak). The player then proceeds to select one of them, we'll say a Nemesis of the encounter, and succeeds in the mastery's discipline roll to perform a critical, which receives +30 on the critical roll. Now, the player commits two force dice to commit the effects. Instead of just keeping the enemies immobilized, they now continue to take 3 points of wound every turn, and the lucky enemy that has the critical, will continue to rack up criticals (which is now +40 on the 2nd turn barring any other criticals, and then +50 on the third, and so on).

 

And since the force dice are committed, the player who is doing all this fairly severe damage, is also free to do whatever else they want with their actions while all this is going on behind them.

 

 

This is compared to Unleash, which requires a higher force rating, more experience to really get a solid use out of it, does not ignore soak, and has its base damage be based off of Willpower.

 

So I'm going to say the committed dice only apply to ongoing effects like immobilize, stagger, disorient, and control's strain damage (which automatically lasts as long as any of Bind's effects anyways).


Edited by Lathrop, 02 September 2014 - 02:58 PM.

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#17 Demigonis

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 06:28 PM

 

So, the narrative: I use my 3 Force dice, activating Bind in a Force Choke, lifting the poor sap off his feet holding him suspended in the air, while I use the Force to strangle the life out of him.  I commit my 2 Force to maintain the effect.......but can only hold him suspended in the air???  Makes no sense, unless you make the player take an action to activate the choke again each round to do the damage, but isn't that covered by commiting 2 of your dice?  Seems to be a lot of wasted resources just to hold someone in place, who by the way can still take actions each turn. 

That is also a little unclear in the rules.

The base power says "restrains and enemy, preventing the target from acting", then your first control upgrade says, "whenever a target affected by Bind takes an action..."

But the text for the basic power says "immobilize"

I'd say the text could use some clarification.

 

What they mean is, "immobilize" prevents characters from taking maneuvers, not actions. They can still take actions while immobilized.


Edited by Demigonis, 02 September 2014 - 06:30 PM.





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