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#1 Intys Rule

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:49 AM

One of the guys was playing Han Solo with Luke as one of the crew.  He would attack, roll poorly, then use Han's ability to reroll.  If I managed to negate all hits, Luke would kick in.

 

1.  Would Han still be able to use his ability to reroll Luke's attack?

2.  Would the player be able to use Luke's ability (change a focus to a hit) if he used Han's ability to reroll Luke's attack?

 

Thanks!



#2 LemonheadPrime

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:55 AM

1. Yes, Han's ability works "when attacking" so it works on the first and the second attack.

2. Yes, changing a focus to a hit is not considered rerolling so Han's and Luke's ability do not clash.



#3 Intys Rule

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:08 AM

Thanks for that.

 

Regarding changing a focus... I argued that that bit of Luke's ability would only trigger on Luke's attack.  So, player rolls, uses Han to reroll, I roll defense and cancel all hits, Luke kicks in --- then he can use all of Luke's abilities such as changing a Focus to a Hit --- but if he decides to use Han again, then Luke is finished and he cannot use Luke to change a Focus to a Hit.

 

Note the difference between Luke's attack (where he can use his ability) and Han's reroll.

 

Was I in error there?



#4 godofcheese

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:27 AM

Unfortunately, yes, you were in error.

 

Han re-rolls the Luke attack, but it is still the Luke attack, so even if the second Primary weapon attack uses the Han re-roll, it would still change 1 result to a hit because of Luke's ability.



#5 Parravon

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 08:19 AM

The other thing to remember is if you decide to use Luke to change a focus to a hit, and then decide it's still not going to be good enough and decide to use Han's ability, you reroll as many of the dice as you can, which may include the one you just changed. This is normally all the dice, except any that have already been rerolled already (due to a target lock, etc).

And due to the "once per opportunity" rule, you only get to use Luke's die-change ability on one of the rolls, either his first one or the reroll, not both.


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Rick   -   Hastings, New Zealand

Rebels: 3 X-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 E-Wing, 1 HWK-290, 1 YT-1300

Imperials: 3 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Int, 1 TIE Adv, 1 TIE Bomber, 1 TIE Phantom, 1 TIE Defender, 1 Firespray-31

Scum & Villainy: 2 Z-95 (planned), 1 Y-Wing (planned) + 1 HWK-290, 1 Y-Wing, 1 Firespray-31 (ready to go)


#6 Intys Rule

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:24 PM

Hmmm... interesting replies.  Well, fair enough I guess, especially considering how much Luke costs.



#7 godofcheese

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

The other thing to remember is if you decide to use Luke to change a focus to a hit, and then decide it's still not going to be good enough and decide to use Han's ability, you reroll as many of the dice as you can, which may include the one you just changed. This is normally all the dice, except any that have already been rerolled already (due to a target lock, etc).
And due to the "once per opportunity" rule, you only get to use Luke's die-change ability on one of the rolls, either his first one or the reroll, not both.


And you will usually use it after the Han reroll, because of this.... And because if you use it initially, you then reroll that dice anyway

#8 TheEldarGuy

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:45 AM

Wait a moment....

 

We've only being playing for a few months, so I think I need a clarification here:

 

Han rolls, re-rolls what he wants....

The Defender evades or in any other way, all attacks fail to hit...

Luke (as per gunner ability) Rolls a primary weapon attack, doing the focus to a hit thing...

 

Am I reading that people are re-rolling Lukes Gunner ability attack using Han Solo's ability - even though Han's had his moment?



#9 Smuggler

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:56 AM

Yes. Han's ability says "When attacking", Luke/gunner says "... perfom a primary weapon attack". You can not perform an attack without getting to a state of "attacking" and so Han has a new opportunity to trigger.



#10 Parravon

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:40 AM

Wait a moment....

 

We've only being playing for a few months, so I think I need a clarification here:

 

Han rolls, re-rolls what he wants....

The Defender evades or in any other way, all attacks fail to hit...

Luke (as per gunner ability) Rolls a primary weapon attack, doing the focus to a hit thing...

 

Am I reading that people are re-rolling Lukes Gunner ability attack using Han Solo's ability - even though Han's had his moment?

An ability can be used once per opportunity, and as Luke is an upgrade for Han that allows a second chance to attack (if the first one fails) then Han's ability has another chance to trigger. The Gunner/Luke ability is counted as a separate attack, so Han's ability can be used to reroll that attack also. You are still attacking with Han's ship, so his ability can still apply to this second attack. 

 

And he doesn't get to reroll "what he wants" unless he's using a target lock, otherwise he must reroll all possible dice that can be rerolled. For example, if he initially rolled two hits and two blanks, he can't just reroll the blanks with his ability - he must reroll the lot, hits included. If he used a target lock instead to reroll the blanks, and rolled another couple of blanks, he could still use his ability, but only to reroll the two hits, as the blanks have already been rerolled and you can't reroll a die more than once. 

 

So to recap:

  1. Han attacks (rolls rubbish)
  2. Han chooses to reroll and rerolls all possible dice.
  3. Defender successfully evades attack.
  4. Luke kicks in and makes second (and separate) attack (and rolls rubbish).
  5. Han kicks in again, because it's a new opportunity, and rerolls all possible dice.
  6. Defender rolls to evade again.

So because Luke provides a second chance attack, Han gets another crack at it if needed.


Edited by Parravon, 01 September 2014 - 05:42 AM.

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Rick   -   Hastings, New Zealand

Rebels: 3 X-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 E-Wing, 1 HWK-290, 1 YT-1300

Imperials: 3 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Int, 1 TIE Adv, 1 TIE Bomber, 1 TIE Phantom, 1 TIE Defender, 1 Firespray-31

Scum & Villainy: 2 Z-95 (planned), 1 Y-Wing (planned) + 1 HWK-290, 1 Y-Wing, 1 Firespray-31 (ready to go)


#11 TheEldarGuy

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:28 AM

There an FAQ on that... seems like some fancy rules lawyering to me. Rick of Hastings, New Zealand, I've read some of your stuff and I would stand by you on almost any other rules. This one seems off.

 

Because I get the Han reroll bit. Fine. But I don't see how he gets a another taste when it's somebody else's turn. The Gunner ability refers to the Primary weapon as the number of dice rolled not the whole bit.

 

Example:

B-Wing with keyan farlander and a couple of stress tokens; he has the crew upgrade and has a gunner, now he gets to use the second stress token on the gunner's shots also?

 

Hmmmmm.



#12 TezzasGames

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:38 AM

Rick of Hastings, New Zealand, I've read some of your stuff and I would stand by you on almost any other rules. This one seems off.

Parravon correctly described how Han (Pilot) and Luke (Crew) work together.


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#13 godofcheese

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:48 AM

Think of Luke as an upgrade card, not a special character. Luke doesn't actually attack, he allows the ship to make a second complete attack. Han Solo is the ship, and his special ability is used for both attacks (but only once per attack).

Doesn't need a FAQ, as once you understand the timing, it is straight forward, and has no grey area.

Edited by godofcheese, 01 September 2014 - 06:49 AM.


#14 Parravon

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:52 AM

There an FAQ on that... seems like some fancy rules lawyering to me. Rick of Hastings, New Zealand, I've read some of your stuff and I would stand by you on almost any other rules. This one seems off.

 

Because I get the Han reroll bit. Fine. But I don't see how he gets a another taste when it's somebody else's turn. The Gunner ability refers to the Primary weapon as the number of dice rolled not the whole bit.

 

Example:

B-Wing with keyan farlander and a couple of stress tokens; he has the crew upgrade and has a gunner, now he gets to use the second stress token on the gunner's shots also?

 

Hmmmmm.

Yeah, that would be exactly right. The Gunner attack is treated as a separate attack from the same (currently activated) ship. The thing you seem to be having trouble with is it's not somebody else's turn. You've activated the Falcon, and Luke is on the Falcon, same as Han. So it's still the one ship. Luke/Gunner trigger when the first attack misses, like an insurance policy for crappy dice rolls. Trust me, I use it all the time as my dice roll are pretty unfavourable most of the time.

As a separate attack, Han can trigger again on the new opportunity.

 

It is a quirky one, I admit, but it's 100% legal. Any ship that you put Luke/Gunner onto can use their ability again on the Gunner attack, unless it's restricted to "Once per round...". It's an expensive card, but very powerful.

 

Here's the FAQ entry:

"Using Gunner’s ability is a separate attack, which means that the ship can choose to declare a different target for the second attack, and any abilities to modify attack dice (such as spending a focus token or a target lock) must be used for each attack separately.
When Gunner is used to perform a primary weapon attack, any additional attacks (such as from Cluster Missiles) are forfeited.
"


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Rick   -   Hastings, New Zealand

Rebels: 3 X-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 E-Wing, 1 HWK-290, 1 YT-1300

Imperials: 3 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Int, 1 TIE Adv, 1 TIE Bomber, 1 TIE Phantom, 1 TIE Defender, 1 Firespray-31

Scum & Villainy: 2 Z-95 (planned), 1 Y-Wing (planned) + 1 HWK-290, 1 Y-Wing, 1 Firespray-31 (ready to go)


#15 TheEldarGuy

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:18 AM

OK.



#16 TheEldarGuy

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 06:16 PM

Just read the FAQ on Han, and unless the FAQ is out of date, the FAQ states that Han's ability is like a Target lock or using a Focus Token, it doesn't constitute a separate attack.

 

Without any further clarification, I am willing to use and see Han use as the Forum members have suggested, but clearly, FFG need to make a few specifics (I think they dislike being so specific about topics, as to avoid this becoming a 40k mess).

 

If I see Han on my opponent's team, I will just ask them how he will be used - and just say "OK, as long as I know".



#17 Parravon

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 06:49 PM

Yes, Han's ability is defined as an attack dice modifying ability, due to being a reroll. But it's the use of the Luke/Gunner upgrade that grants the second and separate attack, and that's why Han can be used twice. Although, to qualify for the second attack, you've still got to miss first, even after using Han's reroll.

 

Han's ability says "When attacking..." and Luke/Gunner's ability is a second attack so Han is within his parameters once more. The main thing to remember is an ability can be used once per opportunity and Luke/Gunner gives another opportunity to the active ship. That's why the Han/Gunner combo is so popular.

 

You are still only activating the one ship with all its upgrades. It's also why the Luke and Gunner cards have the last sentence stating you can't perform another attack this round. Otherwise you'd be endlessly looping until you finally hit.

 

Take the new Scum Boba Fett card for example. "When attacking or defending, you may reroll 1 of your dice for each enemy ship at Range 1." Put Gunner on that ship and you've got the same scenario as Han and Gunner.

Keyan Farlander or Ten Numb with the B-Wing/E2 upgrade and a gunner, same again. You get to use their ability for each attack. Kath Scarlet: each attack adds a stress token to the defender if they cancel a crit. The list is quite long. The Gunner and Luke cards were some of the very first upgrades to come out with crewed ships, and they've hardly changed since then. This is the way they were intended to be used.

 

I think you'll find that anyone that plays the Han/Gunner combo will play it like this. If they don't, they missing an opportunity. Simple as that.


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Rick   -   Hastings, New Zealand

Rebels: 3 X-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 E-Wing, 1 HWK-290, 1 YT-1300

Imperials: 3 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Int, 1 TIE Adv, 1 TIE Bomber, 1 TIE Phantom, 1 TIE Defender, 1 Firespray-31

Scum & Villainy: 2 Z-95 (planned), 1 Y-Wing (planned) + 1 HWK-290, 1 Y-Wing, 1 Firespray-31 (ready to go)


#18 Forgottenlore

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 07:14 PM

I wonder if it is the word "you" that is causing the confusion? The rulebook specifies that when a card uses the word "you", it is referring specifically to that ship. When Han's ability says you may reroll the dice, it means specifically that the millenium falcon may reroll the dice(under the specified conditions, of course). When Luke (or gunner) says you may make another attack, it means the ship the card is assigned to (the falcon, in this case) may make another attack.

So, when Luke triggers, the falcon may make another attack

When the falcon makes an attack, Hans ability can be used

The only restriction there is that Hans ability can only be used once per attack, but we know from the FAQ that Luke and gunner do indeed create an additional attack, they are not a continuation of the original attack, so no problem.
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Thanks, Troy

 

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#19 Parravon

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 07:31 PM

So true. I get the impression that TheEldarGuy is finding this to be a somewhat dodgy use of the combo, but I think it's been specifically designed this way.


Rick   -   Hastings, New Zealand

Rebels: 3 X-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 E-Wing, 1 HWK-290, 1 YT-1300

Imperials: 3 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Int, 1 TIE Adv, 1 TIE Bomber, 1 TIE Phantom, 1 TIE Defender, 1 Firespray-31

Scum & Villainy: 2 Z-95 (planned), 1 Y-Wing (planned) + 1 HWK-290, 1 Y-Wing, 1 Firespray-31 (ready to go)





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