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Creating a Demon Bike


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#1 Sinpoder

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:05 PM

So... I am very confused about this. On page 48 in the Tome of Blood, there is a section that says that you can use the Ritual of Breaking to put a Daemon into a bike. At that point in time, is it a Daemon weapon or is a Daemon Engine?



#2 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:23 PM

I suppose in the end you could do both with a bike and it really depends if you merely want to treat the bike's weaponry as daemon weapons, or if you want to make a proper daemon engine out of it.



#3 Athanatosz

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:42 PM

Ritual of binding to be right. It is count as a engine more specificity as a "daemonic mount" 


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#4 Sinpoder

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 05:48 PM

Ok... so if I took the stats from the Legion Combat Bike (Tome of Blood pg 49) and added the stuff from a Daemonic Engine from the new Tome of Decay. What exactly would that thing be statted out as, assuming that it had a Flesh Hound of Khorne inside of it.



#5 Robin Graves

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 06:18 PM

OOh Fleshound bike! Awesome!



#6 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:22 AM

You actually can't use the Daemon Engine rules to make a Daemon Engine out of a bike. Daemon Engines have to be Size (7) or higher. Bikes are too small. And it's a Daemon Weapon because it's not a Daemon Engine. The Ritual of Breaking (not Binding) is used to ensure that it can never slip your control in the same way as you take Daemonic Mastery Tests to maintain control of Daemon Weapons.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

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#7 Athanatosz

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:04 AM

"New Daemonic Trait mounts such as possessed 
bikes can also be created through the Daemon Weapon 
creation rules or, if available, the Rite of Binding on page 
64 of The Tome of Fate ."
The Tome of Blood. page 48.
 
So bikes go with Daemon Weapon ritual and bigger things goes whit Binding so they became a Daemon Engine?
Also The Ritual of Breaking  can be used  to tame daemonic hounds. Can the Ritual of bonding used to tame Daemons in similar way?

 "I am determined to prove a villain

    And hate the idle pleasures of these days."

 

KING RICHARD III


#8 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:09 AM

"Daemonic: The bike has a Daemon trapped within and

operates as a Daemon Weapon. Each has a Willpower and
Binding Strength listed; if the bike is destroyed, the Daemon
is immediately released. If they have undergone the Ritual of
Breaking (see page 66 of The Tome of Fate), they do not
require a Mastery Test, nor do they have a Binding Strength."
The Tome of Blood, also page 48

The call-out box says to use the Daemon Weapon rules or you can use the Ritual of Binding (as there weren't any Daemon Engine creation rules at the time, so it was using what was available, which was the Ritual of Binding). The Daemon Weapon rules would probably be the best way to go as a base, although they wouldn't get the Daemon weapon traits.

Of course you could completely ignore the Size (X) requirement and just use Decay's Daemon Engine creation rules.

BYE

Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#9 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:46 AM

A legion combat bike has integrated weapons. The daemon weapon traits make perfect sense for those.



#10 Fgdsfg

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:52 AM

By the rules, you should use the rules for Daemon Weapons, but if you have access to the Tome of Decay, you could always just go for the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself, and then the rules for Daemon Weapons specifically for any integrated weapons.

 

It's not RAW, but it should work and might make more sense.


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These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#11 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:53 AM

It'd make them mighty powerful.

Accursed TL-Bolters? Yikes! Impervious? Warp Weapon Bolters? Razorsharp Bolters? Voidchill Bolters? Crippling Bolters... wow. And they're just the unaligned ones!

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

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#12 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:53 AM

By the rules, you should use the rules for Daemon Weapons, but if you have access to the Tome of Decay, you could always just go for the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself, and then the rules for Daemon Weapons specifically for any integrated weapons.

 

It's not RAW, but it should work and might make more sense.

The rules for Daemon Engines already cover what happens to pre-existing weapons. They'd just be unlimited ammo TL-Bolters (assuming they survived the transformation).

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#13 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 06:04 AM

It'd make them mighty powerful.

Accursed TL-Bolters? Yikes! Impervious? Warp Weapon Bolters? Razorsharp Bolters? Voidchill Bolters? Crippling Bolters... wow. And they're just the unaligned ones!

BYE

Treating it as a simple daemon weapon has certain advantages, but it doesn't remove the core flaw of a bike: You are squishy.

A proper daemon engine bike will allow to remove that flaw to an extent, at the cost of the daemon weapon's improved damage output.

 

Letting a player pick between durability and damage output seems like a good thing for me to do GM-side.



#14 Fgdsfg

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:45 AM

 

By the rules, you should use the rules for Daemon Weapons, but if you have access to the Tome of Decay, you could always just go for the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself, and then the rules for Daemon Weapons specifically for any integrated weapons.

 

It's not RAW, but it should work and might make more sense.

The rules for Daemon Engines already cover what happens to pre-existing weapons. They'd just be unlimited ammo TL-Bolters (assuming they survived the transformation).

BYE

 

I know, but by the rules, you're already supposed to use Daemon Weapons anyway.

By taking the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself and the rules for Daemon Weapons for the weaponry, you get something that feels a lot more right. With the rules for Daemon Weapons alone, all you really get is a bike with extra dakka.


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These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#15 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 12:23 AM

So you're saying that you could combine the Daemon Weapon and Daemon Engine rules to create a Bike that is better than both?

That seems to be picking and choosing the rules to get the best possible combo.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#16 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:20 AM

Perfectly within the rules, really, and works for any daemon engine. I'd totally let a player do it, too. With all those ritual rolls he should be burning infamy soon. :D


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 01 September 2014 - 02:20 AM.


#17 Fgdsfg

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:38 AM

So you're saying that you could combine the Daemon Weapon and Daemon Engine rules to create a Bike that is better than both?

That seems to be picking and choosing the rules to get the best possible combo.

BYE

Not at all, I'm saying that you should combine the Daemon Weapon and Daemon Engine rules to create a bike that makes sense.

 

Unless you want to argue that it makes perfect sense that specifically the weapons would somehow get nothing, just because you use Daemon Engine rules for a bike.

Or if you want to argue that it makes perfect sense that a bike with a daemon bound within it would simply affect the weapons.

A bike is more than a weapon. And a bike is more than an engine, too.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#18 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:43 AM

At no point should you treat the basic mundane weapons on a Daemon Engine's shell as "Daemon Weapons", rolling for attributes and whatnot. That's not how it works at all (for standard Daemon Engines). As we're not talking about a standard Daemon Engine (as bikes cannot form the base of a Daemon Engine), then I still wouldn't combine the two.

 

Perfectly within the rules, really, and works for any daemon engine.

Not perfectly within the rules actually, as the bike is too small to be a Daemon Engine.

I guess my point is that if you're intentionally ignoring the size requirement of a Daemon Engine's Shell to make a Bike into a Daemon Engine, then you shouldn't combined them with the Daemon Weapon rules as well. Make them a Daemon Engine or make them a Daemon Weapon. Don't make them both.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#19 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:48 AM

I meant more the general princinple than the specific example of the bike(and I know personally, if I bring up size, the first MacGuyver will be "make the bike bigger or use multiple bikes..."). Combined rites are perfectly possible, but very, very unsafe and increase the likelyhood of being attacked by daemons.

 

So I'd allow it. I also wouldn't cut them any slack when they run out of infamy,  botch another roll and a daemon attacks them.


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 01 September 2014 - 02:51 AM.


#20 Fgdsfg

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:52 AM

At no point should you treat the basic mundane weapons on a Daemon Engine's shell as "Daemon Weapons", rolling for attributes and whatnot. That's not how it works at all (for standard Daemon Engines). As we're not talking about a standard Daemon Engine (as bikes cannot form the base of a Daemon Engine), then I still wouldn't combine the two.

 

Perfectly within the rules, really, and works for any daemon engine.

Not perfectly within the rules actually, as the bike is too small to be a Daemon Engine.

I guess my point is that if you're intentionally ignoring the size requirement of a Daemon Engine's Shell to make a Bike into a Daemon Engine, then you shouldn't combined them with the Daemon Weapon rules as well. Make them a Daemon Engine or make them a Daemon Weapon. Don't make them both.

BYE

 

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Daemon Engine rules really should've encompassed more sizes. I realize that there's only so much room, but still.

The Daemon Weapon rules really doesn't do a Daemon Engine justice, whether we're talking about a bike or a behemoth. At the same time, the Daemon Engine rules are clearly meant for very large daemonic constructs, and a bike using the Daemon Engine rules might end up being utterly insane.

 

After reviewing things, I'd stick to the Daemon Engine rules and tightly moderate them as a GM, toning them down, ignoring any modifiers that affects weapons.

 

Then I'd generate the weapons attached to the bike using the Daemon Weapon rules, keeping it similarly toned down and restricted, representing the overall weapons (meaning that even though it has two bolters, I'd assign the daemon weapon effects to all the bolters equally, not make each of them an independent weapon).

 

Dammit, the daemon engine rules are really cool. We need separate rules for sub-Size (7)-vehicles.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.





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