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Fast Draw: mano e mano at high noon


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#21 Daeglan

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:05 AM

You know the rules ARE meant to be more flexible that you are making them. You seem to want the rules to be super rigid. They are not suppose to be that rigid. It is why we have a GM. Not a computer.



#22 Simon Fix

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:09 AM

You know the rules ARE meant to be more flexible that you are making them. You seem to want the rules to be super rigid. They are not suppose to be that rigid. It is why we have a GM. Not a computer.

 

No offense, Daeglan, but it seems like you're over-complicating something for which there are already reasonable rules.

 

As for duels... I think the argument is that Vigilance is for when you have no idea something is coming, and Cool is for when you know something is coming (even if you don't know when).  Keeping your Cool means not jumping the gun, waiting for the right moment to strike (or shoot).


Edited by Simon Fix, 03 September 2014 - 01:33 AM.

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#23 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:19 AM

You know the rules ARE meant to be more flexible that you are making them. You seem to want the rules to be super rigid. They are not suppose to be that rigid. It is why we have a GM. Not a computer.

Not at all I simply see that your making them so loose as to make two skills exactly the same where with your interpretation vigilance can be used in any situation cool can which effectively removes any and all purpose in putting any points into cool. Some limits are needed or else you start loosing balance.
House rule all you want in some situations it's certainly a good thing, lets just not pretend it's raw when the raw clearly states the specific limits for these skills.

Also don't confuse placing "some" limitations on skill use to be the same as removing all flexibility. If players where trying to learn about something I might allow them to use computers to look up the info or maybe even slice it, appropriate knowldege skills since they might simply know it or possibly even negotiate to haggle the info from someone. That's some looseness but I wouldn't allow them to say use streetwise to say allow someone to punch because they know how they fight on the streets. There is a point where some level of rigidity is necessary

Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 03 September 2014 - 01:24 AM.


#24 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 06:58 AM

 

You know the rules ARE meant to be more flexible that you are making them. You seem to want the rules to be super rigid. They are not suppose to be that rigid. It is why we have a GM. Not a computer.

 

No offense, Daeglan, but it seems like you're over-complicating something for which there are already reasonable rules.

 

As for duels... I think the argument is that Vigilance is for when you have no idea something is coming, and Cool is for when you know something is coming (even if you don't know when).  Keeping your Cool means not jumping the gun, waiting for the right moment to strike (or shoot).

 

 

Exactly.

 

Vigilance is used for initiative when the GM says something like "suddenly, one of the bar patrons pulls a heavy blaster pistol from under his coat!"

 

Cool is used for initiative when the GM says something like "the two of you are staring at one another down the length of the bar, hands twitching over your holsters".

 

You may not know exactly when the other side is going to draw, but you know you're in a combat situation. You don't need to be vigilant, you know where the threat is - right in front of you.

 

You may not "know when he's going to draw", but that's the point of rolling initiative...



#25 Pyrus

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:35 AM

Well, first... I don't have the book at hand, but I think the wording is "X skill may be used for this situation"; it's not ironclad.

 

The very ESSENCE of this system is flexibility in use of skills for situations JUST like this. For example... "Cool" has NOTHING to do with how fast you are on the draw. It deals with how efficiently you process information about a situation. Lotta stuff is happening, do you keep your cool and act, or do you get overwhelmed and hesitate?

 

For your stereotypical old-west gunfight, I'd agree, it generally is Cool vs Cool as both opponents go for the psychological edge, trying to make the other fumble. That isn't to say that I would not allow Vigilance if a player gave a decent reason. Maybe in a duel, the character sinks into a zen-like frame of mind, letting the world wash past them, and subconsciously reading minor tells in the opponent to tell when is the time to strike. It's not quite as extreme as an example in a previous post about allowing Streetwise to be used as an attack - they're different types of skills altogether (knowledge vs Combat) whereas with Cool and Vigilance, they're both Initiative skills. The main difference is thematic. And there is no worry about not having a reason to invest in Cool... it seems to be the go-to skill for all sorts of things, its got PLENTY of uses. It tends to step on the toes of other skills quite a bit, so having  little bit of competition with Vigilance is ok.

 

I guess at the end of the day, I look at it like this. Cool is for situations where cold calculation comes into it. For situations where you have the chance, AND the demeanor to plan things out and stick to the plan. Vigilance is for instinctive situations. Rolling with the punches as they fly. There's some crossover there, as different characters approach things different ways. That is GOOD.



#26 Jamwes

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:15 AM

I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. Just have them roll initiative and add a boost die for Quick Draw or any other applicible talents. The default initiative skill I'd use would be Cool, but if the player can come up with a convincing reason to use some other skill, such as Vigilance, then I'd allow it.

 

I might leave room for other factors to modify the roll. If someone hasn't been in a dual like this before, make a fear check. Are they a gun expert, by having more ranks in Ranged Light than their opponet, thus showing how competent they are with their weapon, then give a boost die.

 

Remember, if you want to be good at a fast draw you should be a Scoundrel. A Scoundrel doesn't win initiative by having a high Cool skill alone. A Scoundrel who wants to will gunfights will invest heavily in Rapid Reaction to buy extra successes in initiative. Rapid Reaction is why the Scoundrel is the quick draw master in the main book.



#27 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:14 AM

Well, first... I don't have the book at hand, but I think the wording is "X skill may be used for this situation"; it's not ironclad.

The very ESSENCE of this system is flexibility in use of skills for situations JUST like this. For example... "Cool" has NOTHING to do with how fast you are on the draw. It deals with how efficiently you process information about a situation. Lotta stuff is happening, do you keep your cool and act, or do you get overwhelmed and hesitate?

Page 199 as I've quoted repeatedly shows they are indeed very specific about when one is used, if your aware of the threat then vigilance is not apporpriate according to the RAW and if your unaware of the threat then Cool is not appropriate, diverging from that IS a house rule that expands the scope of vigilance as the rules note these limitations very clearly in their skill descriptions and more specifically in that pages initiative explanation.
The point is your expanding the scope of vigilance to step into a situation beyond it's normal scope to be used in any and every combat situation a player could just explain quite simply how to use vigilance instead of cool where as the same could not be done with cool since it specifies needed awareness of the target. This could easily result in a character blowing off cool all together since vigilance would be intimately superior for initiative do to that effect of just stating them being vigilant of when an opponent was going to draw their gun or weapon instead of using limitations for both and thus making investment of both valuable.

Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 03 September 2014 - 06:28 PM.


#28 BrashFink

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 12:37 PM

Sorry if this was mentioned (I only quickly scanned the thread). There is a cool bit about a duel and running it on the Order66 Podcast a few episodes ago. They pointed out that you can make a fun mini game out of something like this. Doing challenges back and forth where advantages add or hurt future rolls, the winner needs a certain number of successes. Stuff like that.

 

This gave me an idea for my old west game that I never fully fleshed out. It was going to be a series of checks that would ebb and flow the advantage between players much the way Gain the Advantage does. This would go on until someone felt they had enough of the advantage that they would draw.

 

Once that happens the person that draws rolls cool, the other vigilance. All of the previous checks would add to this roll in some way... perhaps 2 successes = an upgrade? 3 advantages = a boost die? Stuff like that.



#29 Streak

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 03:06 PM

Anyone remember the seminal Boot Hill game, and the stats for various actors and movie characters?    

 

John Wayne used his Toughened-5  :) as the most important skill in a gun fight.



#30 Pyrus

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 07:00 AM

Anyone remember the seminal Boot Hill game, and the stats for various actors and movie characters?    

 

John Wayne used his Toughened-5   :) as the most important skill in a gun fight.

 

Hah, yeah, sadly my luck with dice means that my method of surviving a gunfight is being able to eat more bullets than the opponent.

 

As far as the whole RAW discussion goes... I think the little sidebar on pg 288 ("Fun first, rules second") trumps specific skill descriptions. 

 

I believe that my own, personal, issue with the way Cool is integrated into initiative is that it pretty much makes it a required skill unless you want to be a Space Barney Fife. I'd at least allow a Discipline check in place of Cool in such cases... Cool representing a natural calmness, Discipline representing the results of a trained and focused mind. And then there's the whole thing about the career that should be pretty much synonymous with setting ambushes not having the critical skill of getting the upper hand in ambushes as a career skill... but that's neither here nor there for this discussion. (It does make for an amusing mental image when you realize that in a RAW ambush, a Trader is more naturally inclined to be able to get the first shot than an Assassin, due to less XP expenditure on Cool, and the tendency to have more invested in Presence due to better synergy. So, with the lethality of ranged weapons, and the 'go first and win' sort of environment it encourages... it's best to hope that the person shooting at you is merely a trained killer, and not a shopkeep that had a bad day.)



#31 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 10:38 AM

 

Anyone remember the seminal Boot Hill game, and the stats for various actors and movie characters?    

 

John Wayne used his Toughened-5   :) as the most important skill in a gun fight.

 

Hah, yeah, sadly my luck with dice means that my method of surviving a gunfight is being able to eat more bullets than the opponent.

 

As far as the whole RAW discussion goes... I think the little sidebar on pg 288 ("Fun first, rules second") trumps specific skill descriptions. 

 

I believe that my own, personal, issue with the way Cool is integrated into initiative is that it pretty much makes it a required skill unless you want to be a Space Barney Fife. I'd at least allow a Discipline check in place of Cool in such cases... Cool representing a natural calmness, Discipline representing the results of a trained and focused mind. And then there's the whole thing about the career that should be pretty much synonymous with setting ambushes not having the critical skill of getting the upper hand in ambushes as a career skill... but that's neither here nor there for this discussion. (It does make for an amusing mental image when you realize that in a RAW ambush, a Trader is more naturally inclined to be able to get the first shot than an Assassin, due to less XP expenditure on Cool, and the tendency to have more invested in Presence due to better synergy. So, with the lethality of ranged weapons, and the 'go first and win' sort of environment it encourages... it's best to hope that the person shooting at you is merely a trained killer, and not a shopkeep that had a bad day.)

 

I agree it is more about fun, the argument I was having was more about what the RAW actually said and what it said was that Cool is the stat you use when rolling initiative for players who where aware of imminent combat (such as the quick draw contest). Or in other words houserules are perfectly fine if that's what the group wants but let's call them what they are, house rules, not raw.
My only problem with using a stat other than cool as a house rule in my group is simply that I feel it makes cool become a nearly worthless skill if you can use something else for it as that's it predominant use that only it covers normally. It would seem to me that if a player wanted to be a quick draw specialist they should simply invest in it, as a character should make their bulid reflect their concept not just expect their build to be irrelevant and just shove anything in there to make sure their image is there no matter what.

I agree though it's a bit odd that the Assassin doesn't get cool, however in terms of hoping a trader shoots you than an assassin I wouldnt' want that at all simply for the fact that whilst the trader may be quicker he's bound to be a terrible shot (what with absolutely no combat skills, no combat talents, and agility likely not being a stat as important to focus on for their role), where as that asssisn is not only going to be far more likely to hit but also going to hit far harder with things like precise aim, tergeted blow, lethal blows, anatomy lessons, and deadly accuracy.
Though the lack of cool may be more do the fact that most assassins shouldn't be attacking a target that's aware of them but instead lining up something from a distance with a long range sniper shot where the target doesn't even know they're in the crosshairs until they're dead.


Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 07 September 2014 - 10:43 AM.





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