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Fast Draw: mano e mano at high noon


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#1 imachubchub

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 09:26 PM

If I wanted to set up a "fun & friendly" fast draw shootout between 2 PCs squaring off against each other, both armed with blasters set to stun, would that be a standard check, opposed check, or a competitive check?
 
I could see making it just a standard Cool check to determine initiative, but that would heavily favour 1 of the PCs over the other and they both know it: one PC has a Presence of 4 and a Cool of 2 and the other only has a Presence of 2 and no Cool. But their Ranged (Light) and Agility are evenly matched, more or less and both of them fashion themselves the "best gunslinger" on the ship. I could see doing it this way and narration will go a long way to making it suitably epic, but wondering if there is another way to do it.
 
If it was an Opposed check, how might I determine whose skill gets the positive dice and who gets the negative dice. Seems like it could go back to whoever won a Cool check, but then they would get to roll all the dice while the other one watched. Possibly not as fun.
 
Seems like a Competitive check might be the way to go, allowing them both to roll dice, but would it just be a straight up Ranged (Light) check against a set difficulty?
 
Or maybe I'm making this too complicated and there is an easy and simple way to do it. Both my players want to "throw down" so to speak and everyone's excited to see what happens, but not sure what route to take. What would you guys do?

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#2 Daeglan

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 12:52 AM

cool checks for initiative.
you could probably use presence to psych out the other guy.

possible boost die to the guy with quick draw talent.


Edited by Daeglan, 30 August 2014 - 12:53 AM.

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#3 Pyrus

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 02:37 PM

If it's just supposed to be one of those 'cinematic' things... and I were running things (I like to experiment with odd house-rules to see how they impact things, keep this in mind) I might do something like split up player actions. 

 

This sort of thing pretty much screams "cool" for initiative (I'm a fan of letting people choose which skill they want to use... cool as you want to be, it's pretty tough to pull one over on a hyper-vigilant paranoid character, so I can see arguments for using either skill), but I also think that 'all or nothing' initiative doesn't give talents like Quick Draw their due. 

 

I'd let them go ahead and have their initiative checks, then split their turns up so that each character gets one of their maneuvers/actions, the other gets one, the first gets their second, then the other gets his second... and then on into third actions if anyone took the strain.

 

So, let's say Hank and Jim are gonna gunfight. Hank is a cool customer, but Jim has Quick Draw.  Hank gets the initiative.

 

Step 1: Hank wins initiative

Step 2: Hank takes a maneuver to draw his pistol

Step 3: Jim Quick Draws and fires, winging Hank.

(If the object of the duel is 'first blood' then Jim has won. If not, continue on till win conditions are met.)

 

In the end, Hank might have the steadier nerves, and it shows... but Jim is just a better hand with a gun. This is too unwieldy for full-on combat with several individuals to a side, but for my money it makes for a good showdown, allowing different abilities to shine through. Perhaps play around with whether "strain" actions come first, and whether they take up the initiative spot or not. (Maybe if Hank won, took strain for an extra maneuver, he might be able to draw and fire even though Jim has Quick Draw. Up to you.)


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#4 Daeglan

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

You could do something similar to do an Iado duel between a jedi and a sith.



#5 imachubchub

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 01:35 AM

I'd let them go ahead and have their initiative checks, then split their turns up so that each character gets one of their maneuvers/actions, the other gets one, the first gets their second, then the other gets his second... and then on into third actions if anyone took the strain.

 

So, let's say Hank and Jim are gonna gunfight. Hank is a cool customer, but Jim has Quick Draw.  Hank gets the initiative.

 

Step 1: Hank wins initiative

Step 2: Hank takes a maneuver to draw his pistol

Step 3: Jim Quick Draws and fires, winging Hank.

(If the object of the duel is 'first blood' then Jim has won. If not, continue on till win conditions are met.)

 

In the end, Hank might have the steadier nerves, and it shows... but Jim is just a better hand with a gun. This is too unwieldy for full-on combat with several individuals to a side, but for my money it makes for a good showdown, allowing different abilities to shine through. Perhaps play around with whether "strain" actions come first, and whether they take up the initiative spot or not. (Maybe if Hank won, took strain for an extra maneuver, he might be able to draw and fire even though Jim has Quick Draw. Up to you.)

 

Thanks for the replies! I'm intrigued with this idea to break down a turn into its respective maneuvers and actions. For a specific situation like a quick draw gun contest, it kind of makes sense and looks like it could be a lot of fun. Almost like narrating in bullet-time!



#6 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 09:45 PM

I don't know I kind of think just using the standard rules works best, after all the quicker shot should be the guy with cool as that's really the only point of cool, quick draw would give the benift of allowing a player to aim and there's always the chance a player may miss especially if another one has dodge (also there's a talent I believe that can increase initiative but don't have it on me at the moment).
I mean if the players know one guy is just much faster the I think gimping that with house rules kind of cheats him out of his build.

Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 02 September 2014 - 09:48 PM.


#7 Daeglan

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 09:49 PM

There is more to winning a gun fight than cool. 
You need to be fast on the draw and a good shot.



#8 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 09:55 PM

There is more to winning a gun fight than cool.
You need to be fast on the draw and a good shot.

of course and that's where agility and weapon skill come in on top of various talents, I mean the books combat rules already cover all of this I just don't see any need for a house rule when it can just go:
Both players roll cool, determine initiative
Then combat like normal, if first blood then the first successful bit wins simple as that
If hitting a target then first to hit a target.

I get the point of the gm wanting it to be cool and that makes sense but if one players so much faster than the other then that should be reflected in the scene to represent that characters investment in being faster (ie cool)

Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 02 September 2014 - 10:00 PM.


#9 Daeglan

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:06 PM

except some people might not use cool. they might use vigilance and catch the shift when the other guy decides to draw and fire first via quickdraw and rolling a higher initiative via vigilance. The system is flexible this way for a reason. People use different methods.



#10 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:09 PM

except some people might not use cool. they might use vigilance and catch the shift when the other guy decides to draw and fire first via quickdraw and rolling a higher initiative via vigilance. The system is flexible this way for a reason. People use different methods.

i don't see how vigilance would apply isn't that only for reacting to things you aren't aware of? If not what would ever be the point in investing in both when you could just use them interchangeably?
In this situation both players are fully aware of what's going to occur and are holding their patience to act thus cool I'd think

Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 02 September 2014 - 10:10 PM.


#11 Daeglan

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:15 PM

Are you aware of when the other guy is going to shoot?
Also the rules say you can use vigilance instead of cool.

One is staying calm and going at the right time. The other is noticing things and reacting.  If you are ambushed you don't get a choice. If you are planning the attack you do get a choice. 


Edited by Daeglan, 02 September 2014 - 10:17 PM.


#12 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:44 PM

Are you aware of when the other guy is going to shoot?
Also the rules say you can use vigilance instead of cool.

One is staying calm and going at the right time. The other is noticing things and reacting.  If you are ambushed you don't get a choice. If you are planning the attack you do get a choice. 

Yes, if it's as duel where you're both testing who can shoot the fastest then by all means how could you possibly not be aware?
Under the entry for vigiliance (page 119) it says it is to be used "In combat situations, outside of those times when a character has patiently prepared to begin the engagement, vigilance is used to calculate initiative"
In the case of a duel as described by the OP both participants have decided on a time and place to meet, prepped their guns, gotten in place, and set a moment to draw so I don't see how you could sub in vigilance here given when the book says it should be used.
To add to this on page 199 in the section "Cool or Vigilance" it states that characters should dtermine their initiatve with cool when they are aware and ready for combat (again supported by the situation entirely).
In fact it litterally says "For example, rolling to see who goes first in a quick draw gun fight..."
With Vigilance it says it should be used "when combat (or another situation resulting in structure gameplay) begins unexpectidly."
Seems pretty straight forwards that the two aren't just swapped willy nilly but are fairly stricktly defined to be context specific (and understandably so otherwise having two skills that do exactly the same thing in any situation you wish would be pointless mechanic wise).
The determination of which to use, as such, seems entirely relevant to what the situation is and whether or not the character in question is aware of what's going on or not.


Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 02 September 2014 - 10:46 PM.


#13 Daeglan

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:53 PM

 

Are you aware of when the other guy is going to shoot?
Also the rules say you can use vigilance instead of cool.

One is staying calm and going at the right time. The other is noticing things and reacting.  If you are ambushed you don't get a choice. If you are planning the attack you do get a choice. 

Yes, if it's as duel where you're both testing who can shoot the fastest then by all means how could you possibly not be aware?
Under the entry for vigiliance (page 119) it says it is to be used "In combat situations, outside of those times when a character has patiently prepared to begin the engagement, vigilance is used to calculate initiative"
In the case of a duel as described by the OP both participants have decided on a time and place to meet, prepped their guns, gotten in place, and set a moment to draw so I don't see how you could sub in vigilance here given when the book says it should be used.
To add to this on page 199 in the section "Cool or Vigilance" it states that characters should dtermine their initiatve with cool when they are aware and ready for combat (again supported by the situation entirely).
In fact it litterally says "For example, rolling to see who goes first in a quick draw gun fight..."
With Vigilance it says it should be used "when combat (or another situation resulting in structure gameplay) begins unexpectidly."
Seems pretty straight forwards that the two aren't just swapped willy nilly but are fairly stricktly defined to be context specific (and understandably so otherwise having two skills that do exactly the same thing in any situation you wish would be pointless mechanic wise).
The determination of which to use, as such, seems entirely relevant to what the situation is and whether or not the character in question is aware of what's going on or not.

 

you have never done a duel of any sort have you? You do not know when the other person is going to draw and fire. Or draw and attack with a sword. I have done a duel with swords where you stand in stand in striking distance of each other and try and strike the other person before they strike you. One method is to try and be totally calm when you draw and strike so as to not give away when you attack. The other method is to read the other person and try and catch the shift from calm to attack and strike. One method is using cool. the other is using vigilance. 

Part of the beauty of this system is that it is flexible. You change the narrative based on how they try and accomplish the task.

Think of it like charm and coercion. one is talking someone into doing something. The other is trying to bully them into doing it. Both are valid methods and both will be different narratives.


Edited by Daeglan, 02 September 2014 - 10:56 PM.


#14 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:06 PM

 

 

Are you aware of when the other guy is going to shoot?
Also the rules say you can use vigilance instead of cool.

One is staying calm and going at the right time. The other is noticing things and reacting.  If you are ambushed you don't get a choice. If you are planning the attack you do get a choice. 

Yes, if it's as duel where you're both testing who can shoot the fastest then by all means how could you possibly not be aware?
Under the entry for vigiliance (page 119) it says it is to be used "In combat situations, outside of those times when a character has patiently prepared to begin the engagement, vigilance is used to calculate initiative"
In the case of a duel as described by the OP both participants have decided on a time and place to meet, prepped their guns, gotten in place, and set a moment to draw so I don't see how you could sub in vigilance here given when the book says it should be used.
To add to this on page 199 in the section "Cool or Vigilance" it states that characters should dtermine their initiatve with cool when they are aware and ready for combat (again supported by the situation entirely).
In fact it litterally says "For example, rolling to see who goes first in a quick draw gun fight..."
With Vigilance it says it should be used "when combat (or another situation resulting in structure gameplay) begins unexpectidly."
Seems pretty straight forwards that the two aren't just swapped willy nilly but are fairly stricktly defined to be context specific (and understandably so otherwise having two skills that do exactly the same thing in any situation you wish would be pointless mechanic wise).
The determination of which to use, as such, seems entirely relevant to what the situation is and whether or not the character in question is aware of what's going on or not.

 

you have never done a duel of any sort have you? You do not know when the other person is going to draw and fire. Or draw and attack with a sword. I have done a duel with swords where you stand in stand in striking distance of each other and try and strike the other person before they strike you. One method is to try and be totally calm when you draw and strike so as to not give away when you attack. The other method is to read the other person and try and catch the shift from calm to attack and strike. One method is using cool. the other is using vigilance. 

Part of the beauty of this system is that it is flexible. You change the narrative based on how they try and accomplish the task.

Think of it like charm and coercion. one is talking someone into doing something. The other is trying to bully them into doing it. Both are valid methods and both will be different narratives.

 

Again you're making cool a meaningless skill when vigilance can apply to every situation. It's not about not knowing when you're going to draw, it's about knowing your'e going to get into combat and preparing. Your ruling makes it so that vigilance can appy to every situation where cool can only apply to some, that's clearly not the intent of the raw as it makes one skill heavily more useful than the other.
The point is with cool in this situation is you are both prepared for combat, you know it's coming where as vigilance is more suddenly someone attacks you when you never knew they even had that intent, or suddenly you are ambushed, or you run around a corner and there's a person there swinging or shooting at you.

Again page 199 clearly says word for word under when cool should be applied "For example, rolling to see who goes first in a quick draw gunfight".
How more specific could it possibly get to tell you that cool, not vigilance, is used in the situation when they litterally mention this EXACT situation?

"Think of it like charm and coercion. one is talking someone into doing something. The other is trying to bully them into doing it. Both are valid methods and both will be different narratives."
Except youre reasoning is more like saying you're going to try and smooth talk someone with coercian or scare them with charm. All skills have circumstances that define when they are to be used since at some point mechanics have to step in and set certain boundaries.
Vigilance and Cool have circumstances just like those skills that dictate when and how they occur. Are you prepared for combat and fully aware it's going to occur? If so the RAW says cool is your stat and if the answer is no then it says Vigilance is your stat. The fact of the mater is though under cool it LITTERALLY stated that a quick draw gunfight as an example for when to use Cool so that should be enough right there.


Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 02 September 2014 - 11:10 PM.


#15 Daeglan

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:12 PM

No I am not. Cool is the better skill for a gun fight and someone with a high skill in cool should win because they never see the shift they just get shot. 

It is why we have a GM. 



#16 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:38 PM

No I am not. Cool is the better skill for a gun fight and someone with a high skill in cool should win because they never see the shift they just get shot. 

It is why we have a GM. 

You're saying vigilance should be able to apply to a situation where a player is fully aware combat should take place simply because they may not be aware of the exact moment the opponent is going to attack. Yet there is no situation in which cool can be applied when a character is not aware that combat should take place. Thus vigilance can be munchkined to apply to every single situation in which initiative is needed where as cool can not making cool meaningless to invest into over vigilance if that where what the RAW supported (which the rules I think are fairly clear isn't the case at all).
The cool check isn't reactionary to whose shooting, you're just seeing who is capable of drawing their Gun first, your fully aware of the guy that's going to be shooting at you and that's clearly defined if you'd go and read the skill section or the quotations I took directly from the book. It's the opposition and their intent that matters, not the movement. If you're just talking to a merchant and suddenly he pulls a blaster from behind the coutner then the rules dictate vigilance is the proper skill because you where unaware there would be any threat in the given situation where as if you KNOW a guy is going to be shooting at you then it states, again very clearly, that cool is what you use.

Yes the GM can houserule any situation, but let's not pretend your interpretation is RAW (and mind you that's perfectly fine, I'm just trying to show what the RAW actually says and how it already covers this situation very clearly).


Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 02 September 2014 - 11:39 PM.


#17 Daeglan

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:18 AM

Correct. But if someone is reacting to the other person drawing that would be vigilance. It truly is a narrative difference. The person with out cool is behind the curve trying to get ahead of the guy with cool. I would probably rule they have a set back die for being behind the curve. 



#18 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:32 AM

Correct. But if someone is reacting to the other person drawing that would be vigilance. It truly is a narrative difference. The person with out cool is behind the curve trying to get ahead of the guy with cool. I would probably rule they have a set back die for being behind the curve. 

No not if they are aware that the other person was going to draw which, given the situaiton, they would be. Again it describes the cool useage during initiatve as any time in which you are prepared for combat, you needn't know the exact moment that your opponent is going to attack just that they are going to attack and who/where they are where as it describes vigilance as specifically when you AREN'T prepared for combat or don't know when/where your opponent is ie during an ambush of some sort. Vigilance will probably see less useage but has the trade off of being more vital as it occurs more often when your foe is getting the jump on you making being able to react quickly important.
Again in the fast draw situation both you and your fore are fully ready and aware that combat is going to occur, this is the exact defining situation for the useage of cool and in no way fits vigilances discription as you are not unaware that combat is going to occur nor is your opponent attacking you a sudden surprise you weren't expecting.


Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 03 September 2014 - 12:35 AM.


#19 Daeglan

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:40 AM

they are not aware of WHEN they will draw. They know they will. They are trying to read when. And again I can tell you have never done it so you have no idea what I am talking about.

The When is important. That is what someone using vigilance is trying to read. 



#20 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:04 AM

they are not aware of WHEN they will draw. They know they will. They are trying to read when. And again I can tell you have never done it so you have no idea what I am talking about.

The When is important. That is what someone using vigilance is trying to read. 

Nowhere in the cool rules does it say that they have to be aware of "when" they will draw, just that they have to be aware that their going to initiate combat.
"And again I can tell you have never done it so you have no idea what I am talking about."
No I know exactly what you're talking about, it simply isn't relevant according to the RAW.
"The When is important."
No where in the rules does it say this, all it says is that, and again I quote:
(Page 199) "Characters should determine their initiative using the Cool skill when they are aware and ready for  combat". In the duel both players are aware and ready.
For Vigilance it says "Characters should determine their Initiative using Vigilance skill when combat begins unexpectidly" they are expecting combat ergo the Vigilance skill is uncalled for.

Nowhere does it state that you need to know exactly when your opponent is going to attack, merely that they are going to attack. It comes as no surprise in a duel when a guy pulls his gun and fires because you where fully expecting him to fire, the when is irrelevant. The only time it would be relevant is if you're walking into someplace you know enemies are and suddenly one pops up from someplace you didn't see.


Edited by Dark Bunny Lord, 03 September 2014 - 01:04 AM.





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