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It's time to ban C3P0


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#401 Osoroshii

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:03 PM

Just my 2¢:

FFG is very unlikely to ban a card that helps sell it's most expensive ship.

#402 Seanamal

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:12 PM

Here's my complaint: an echo swarm pilot vs a fat han is akin to putting a chess player against a rigged slot machine and seeing who gets to checkmate or gets 3 cherries 6 times first. It's ridiculous. One is using skill and well thought tactics, the other is an exercise in probability mechanics. I'm hoping IG2K lists will counter fat han resulting in a bit of rock paper scissors of Echo swarm countering IG2K, IG2K countering Fat Han, and Fat Han countering Echo. That will return balance to the force, i mean meta! 8P


Noli esse forum troglodytam, asinus hat!

 

Current fleet: 7 Ties, 4 tie interceptors, 2 tie advanced, 1 tie bomber, 1 tie phantom, 1 tie defender, 1 firespray, 1 lambda

5 x wings, 3 z95s, 2 a wings, 2 y wings, 1 b wing, 1 e wing, 1 hawk, 1 yt1300, 1 cr90, 1 transport


#403 Sithborg

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:20 PM

We are actually unlikely to see a ban list at all. What we are more likely to see is a restricted list first. That tends to be their preferred method in preventing abusive combos in the LCGs. Amazingly, the SWLCG got a restricted list before Netrunner.

 

Restrict the Millenium Falcon title and C-3PO, and bam, most of the complaints in this thread are done.



#404 Ayleron

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 10:21 PM

Except then there would be a new one about how unfair the restriction is. :-P I still hear people say, "I love the falcon and it's great for winning games but it's still under powered, I hope they fix it soon." It boggles my mind. While I hope to see a more open meta soon, I am glad we were able to have some good discussions about things in this thread. It is infamous at this point, but I feel like between snark and troll-speech we have had real opinions shared and at least a little more understanding. I know I feel better about it having watched and some what participated.

Edited by Ayleron, 30 August 2014 - 10:25 PM.


#405 Sanchez

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:26 AM

21 pages LOL

#406 s1n

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:30 AM

OMG everything is so OP, we should just ban all ships and upgrades and to make it fair we can all just play as asteroids.

 

That large asteroid in the bunch of OP. I say we ban it too.



#407 winters_night

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:39 AM

Here's my complaint: an echo swarm pilot vs a fat han is akin to putting a chess player against a rigged slot machine and seeing who gets to checkmate or gets 3 cherries 6 times first. It's ridiculous. One is using skill and well thought tactics, the other is an exercise in probability mechanics. I'm hoping IG2K lists will counter fat han resulting in a bit of rock paper scissors of Echo swarm countering IG2K, IG2K countering Fat Han, and Fat Han countering Echo. That will return balance to the force, i mean meta! 8P

 

I wasn't aware Echo + ACD = skill and tactics..

 

Ever notice when people use something it's considered skill? Supped up Falcons are Cheese, Supped up Phantoms are Cheese


Edited by winters_night, 31 August 2014 - 12:40 AM.

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#408 Theorist Jeff

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:40 AM

My, what topics you guys have over here!

To all who are having trouble vs Falcon's C3P0 + MF defensive shell -- you can get get 2+ guns on this ship pretty consistently, even if it has the Engine option to flee. Attack while you still have multiple ships, so that it has no place to hide. The longeryou wait, the more likely you are to be stuck facing the Evade wall with just one gun. I have brought this ship down with all sorts of lists, from big guns to small guns. C3P0 is definitely a manageable card, and does not provide any unfair advantage. He's just a good card instead of a dud card, nothing more. The game is full of similarly strong cards.

To those who misconstrue what advantage C3P0 is really giving (there are a lot of you), I'd like to reframe C3P0:

Generally yes, you will guess 0. This maximizes your chances of the card having an effect. But two things can happen after you guess zero, and I think that's where people are crediting C3P0 with far more than he does.

If you guess right, hazzah. You stop 1 damage. This might buy you an extra turn alive as you build saved health, or it might not. In many cases C3P0 will activate 2-3 times, but the Falcon will still die on the same turn it would have anyway. In these games the extra health from C3P0 didn't actually do anything unless the shots that killed him could have gone against other targets -- something that often wouldnot have been an option.

If you guess wrong is where people seem confused. If you guess wrong, yes you rolled an Evade. But C3P0 had nothing to do with that Evade -- you'd have rolled it anyway. C3P0 cost you 3pts that turn, but did literally nothing.

So the value of C3P0 (on Falcon, at Range 1-2) is this:

(62.5% x C3P0) - (100% x alternate use of 3pts)

The other 37.5% of the time, you are out 3pts and aren't getting any value.

With an accurate assault from any squad with even moderate firepower (like ATT 3 x 4), it is viirtually assured that you kill a Falcon in 3 turns past C3P0. That's 3 uses of the card, probably 2 health saved. The Falcon player will try to avoid such an ambush, but can only be so successful. It's a very even fight, and the better player will tend to win it regardless of which side of that fight they are on.

...

I like the comparison with the Chewbacca crew card. The health savings is similar -- you might save Chewbacca to discard a Direct Hit. You are likely to get 3-5 uses out of C3P0 before your Falcon dies, unless your opponent isn't rushing aggressively/effectively. That's typically 2-3 extra health.

I'm sure I won't convince anyone of anything they didn't already think. But for what it's worth I've had plenty of games with/against this card and Falcon in general... and although C3P0 is good (as are most cards when in their ideal home) I haven't found him to be in any way problematic. There's no reasonably list I know where he could not be beaten with solid play, except some of the heavy ion turret lists (which already lost badly to Falcons before C3P0 appeared).

Hi to all.



 


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#409 FTS Gecko

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:37 AM

Here's my complaint: an echo swarm pilot vs a fat han is akin to putting a chess player against a rigged slot machine and seeing who gets to checkmate or gets 3 cherries 6 times first. It's ridiculous. One is using skill and well thought tactics, the other is an exercise in probability mechanics...

 

Aha,

 

Hahaha.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

7708.gif


Edited by FTS Gecko, 31 August 2014 - 03:37 AM.

5th October 2014.


#410 Two_Hands

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:40 AM

Funny thing, so many people go on about "Falcons, OMG Falcons, I hate Falcons, everyone is flying Falcons"- but hardly anyone will admit to actually FLYING falcons. Where are the people who are actually flying the damn things and presumably enjoying it? Why are they not commenting? Is it some weird thing where everyone does it secretively and pretends they don't (I won't make the obvious comparison)?

#411 Lagomorphia

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:18 AM

Here's my complaint: an echo swarm pilot vs a fat han is akin to putting a chess player against a rigged slot machine and seeing who gets to checkmate or gets 3 cherries 6 times first. It's ridiculous. One is using skill and well thought tactics, the other is an exercise in probability mechanics. I'm hoping IG2K lists will counter fat han resulting in a bit of rock paper scissors of Echo swarm countering IG2K, IG2K countering Fat Han, and Fat Han countering Echo. That will return balance to the force, i mean meta! 8P

 

That Han isn't just sitting on an RNG, his decisions matter. If he just flies right at the TIEs and the Phantom they'll shred him: he's gotta dodge their arcs to minimise the fire he takes each turn, maximising the effect of C-3PO and the evade action and making up for his firepower disadvantage.



#412 Dagonet

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:21 AM

Where are the people who are actually flying the damn things and presumably enjoying it? 

 

Busy winning?

 

Or, as Sean Connery put it in 'The Rock': Losers always whine about doing their best, winners go home and [have a splendid mutually consenting and satisfying adult interlude with] the prom queen.



#413 FTS Gecko

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:19 AM

 

Where are the people who are actually flying the damn things and presumably enjoying it? 

 

Busy winning?

 

I fly the Falcon with passing regularity.  I'm not ashamed to admit it, either.  And I enjoy it.  I don't do particularly well with it - nine times out of ten I'll look across the table, see how heavily outnumbered I am and wonder just what in the blue hell I'm going to do about it.  One attack per turn (even with Gunner, Predator or suchlike) only goes so far, and it'll usually take two turns for the Falcon to down a single TIE Fighter.

 

Expert Handling Han into Range one of an Academy TIE doesn't always pay off, either.

 

But it's a great looking ship, it's iconic, it's fun to fly, and it can be tricked out in countless different ways.


5th October 2014.


#414 DreadStar

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:28 AM

Funny thing, so many people go on about "Falcons, OMG Falcons, I hate Falcons, everyone is flying Falcons"- but hardly anyone will admit to actually FLYING falcons. Where are the people who are actually flying the damn things and presumably enjoying it? Why are they not commenting? Is it some weird thing where everyone does it secretively and pretends they don't (I won't make the obvious comparison)?

They are enjoying the cash and hooters the falcon gets them.


Edited by DreadStar, 31 August 2014 - 05:29 AM.


#415 Dagonet

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:29 AM

 

 

But it's a great looking ship, it's iconic, it's fun to fly, and it can be tricked out in countless different ways.

 

 

Oh it is, it can be. You can so easily replicate scenes from the movies with it, it really is a masterpiece of design in that respect.



#416 FTS Gecko

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:34 AM

Oh it is, it can be. You can so easily replicate scenes from the movies with it, it really is a masterpiece of design in that respect.

 

 

Indeed - I still need to try out this particular scenario...


5th October 2014.


#417 Dagonet

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:41 AM

 

Oh it is, it can be. You can so easily replicate scenes from the movies with it, it really is a masterpiece of design in that respect.

 

 

Indeed - I still need to try out this particular scenario...

 

 

I'd take:

Han piloting, Leia and C-3PO crew, Expert Handling and Engine Boost. You have just escaped from Hoth after all. 



#418 Chetote

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:50 AM

Hi all

 

This is my first post in this forum, and I dont know if somebody has already said this, but i will give my opinion about this card:

 

I don't think C3P0 is unbalanced nor overpowered by itself. But even if it's not unbalanced, it doesn't help balance at all. Let me explain: the falcon with escorts/double falcon list weakness is the tie swarm, and against this kind of lis, C3P0 will almost make no difference with the falcon taking that many shots in 1 turn. However, against 3 or 4 ships (excluding the 4X or 2X2B lists), specially against interceptors, this can make a hell of a game for the imperial player. I usually play 3 interceptors+lambda, and I could beat nearly every falcon/double falcon list until this card came out, which left me with no options to win (or maybe I did really bad at that ones xd).

 

In short terms, my conclussion is that C3P0 doesn't make the falcons unbeatable, but makes them more powerful against lists they already were really powerful against, and not helping them against their real counters.

 

(Sorry if it was hard to understand or if I mispelled something, as English is not my mother language) :)


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#419 Scizzler

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:12 AM

I've seen HLC Outmaneuver Rexler Brath drop a Falcon by himself.


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I've got ships for days





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