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Fraternization among the Guard


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#81 SgtLazarus

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 10:20 AM

Except the part where there are no such thing as female Space Marines.

Crossovers is legit, however, but then it's not a Deathwatch game really, is it? It becomes a mixed line game.


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#82 BaronIveagh

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 11:36 AM

Except the part where there are no such thing as female Space Marines.

Crossovers is legit, however, but then it's not a Deathwatch game really, is it? It becomes a mixed line game.

 

 

Sadly, this is teetering toward a Female Space Marine discussion, and while I long ago proved that female space marines were actually possible WITHOUT breaking fluff, it heads into areas that I seriously doubt the mods want this thread to go.

 

 

However, the original subject matter almost requires additional information from GW and it's codecies, BL novels, etc, as it's about the interaction of male and female guardsmen.  This does require discussing the depictions of guard in fluff and GW's attitudes toward women in general (*cough* snuff fodder *cough*) because we have to look at their material for additional information.

 

Sadly, very few BL novels or codecies have prominent female characters (with noted exceptions), let alone address the subject of female guardsmen..  The CC and GG novels are pretty much all that looks at this.  People asked the (totally legitimate) question of why this was, and the answer was given, and was discussed.

 

As i explained earlier, the minis drive the game, not the other way around.  GW does not talk much about female guardsmen because they don't sell female guardsmen.  They, at this time, have no intent of making female guardsmen, and their corporate attitude is that female gamers can go back to their dolls (though they don't come out and say it because loss of revenue/law suits).  They are trying to pander to what they assume they're target audience is, the 12 year old male demographic with parents who have disposable income, because upper management is run by idiots who have killed several potentially successful squad based and/or low model count games because they want to sell more minis, and so are loosing money as they struggle to compete with things like squad based/low unit count games. /rant

 

If you doubt my view on this, if any of the rest of you can point to your name in the credits to a GW product, please, by all means, speak up.


Edited by BaronIveagh, 02 November 2014 - 11:38 AM.

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#83 Lynata

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 11:42 AM

Also, this is a forum - is anyone really surprised by discussions evolving to cover related areas? Because I think this is normal, and it happens in about every 2nd thread on this board.


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#84 pearldrum1

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 08:05 PM

Warning: Thread derailment may occur for the duration of this post. I apologize and may God have mercy on my soul.

 

So, super off the original topic but since it is being brought up... One of my players in my original Deathwatch game had no experience with the universe and really wanted to play a female Astartes. Using the Omega Vault and the fluff of the missing Primarchs, I created an all female Astartes Chapter called the Daughters of Death. It wasn't hard to do and no one had a problem with it.

 

Thus, if your players/GM give it the A-OK, then why not? Have fun.

 

 

- I can't find the forum where I posted it originally. I have the original material if anyone is interested, but yeah. We have the technology... IT CAN BE DONE.

 

OK, derailment finished.


Edited by pearldrum1, 02 November 2014 - 09:38 PM.


#85 Chaplain

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 11:49 PM

Well, we've got astartes who can change gender at will in black crusade.
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#86 Robin Graves

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:50 AM

Slaanesh be praised!



#87 BaronIveagh

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:54 AM

Well, there' s a * on pretty much any hard and fast rule for the Astartes that says '*except the Cursed Founding' because the Inquisition played fast and loose with genetic engineering there and no one is sure exactly how many chapters they created, or what was done to each one, but we already know it created Ghostrider marines, Wolverine marines, and Human Torch marines.

 

Girl marines would be positively normal by comparison.

 

 

 

But this is wildly OT.


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#88 pearldrum1

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 07:40 AM

OT as F.



#89 ranoncles

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:58 AM

 

Also, As the Social justice warriors on this forum delight in reminding us; I doubt you could actually tell a male guardsman from a female in 28mm scale! If you really wanted to differentiate the minis (And you're good enough) Paint their lips red. It's not really accurate, (I doubt many women in combat bother with lipstick!) but it will get the point across.

 

 

Well, actually, it depends on the armor and how it's fitted.  I've met real world female soldiers in body armor.  Some you could tell, some you couldn't. 

 

Victoria Lamb did some very nice 'not Cadians' who are female.

 

arcadian-scale-comparison-2.jpg

 

Notice that the female is identifiable, and not because of her armor having an oversculpted 'breastplate'.

 

I can point to at least one front line detail that women can easily outpace their male peers at: operation of armored vehicles.  Since being large, burly and over muscled is a negative thing when having to move around in a tank.  And it's not one's personal physical strength that makes you a threat to the enemy in one, so that argument has no weight here.

 

 

Sorry to say you are wrong about this....

 

Yes, small(er) bodies are an advantage for vehicle crews inside the vehicle. But maintaining the vehicle, especially if its tracked, is a dirty, difficult job and requires quite a lot of physical strength. Just as being a loader on a tank. Those shells become quite heavy in a prolonged engagement...



#90 Lynata

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 10:34 AM

Yes, small(er) bodies are an advantage for vehicle crews inside the vehicle. But maintaining the vehicle, especially if its tracked, is a dirty, difficult job and requires quite a lot of physical strength. Just as being a loader on a tank. Those shells become quite heavy in a prolonged engagement...

 

To be more precise, it depends a lot on the vehicle and your tools

 

 

Though given the setting and its clichés, I could see it as appropriate to assume that 40k is more "low-tech", meaning that in lieu of a contemporary autoloaders, shells have to be loaded manually and repairs in the field are much more labour-intensive. If the crew is even trained to conduct them, given the AdMech's monopoly...

 

Body size and physical strength should also not be assumed to have a gradual 1:1 connection, tho.  :)


Edited by Lynata, 05 November 2014 - 10:35 AM.

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#91 BaronIveagh

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 05:35 AM

Yes, small(er) bodies are an advantage for vehicle crews inside the vehicle. But maintaining the vehicle, especially if its tracked, is a dirty, difficult job and requires quite a lot of physical strength. Just as being a loader on a tank. Those shells become quite heavy in a prolonged engagement...

 

 

It also requires the adeptus mechanicus in this setting, so there's somewhat less relevance to what you're saying.  Even on things as simple as a thrown track.

 

On the other point it depends on how long the engagement is, how long you're firing, and how big your shells are.  Remember that the fluff diameters for the guns are much smaller than the guns apparent size.  I can say that a ten kilo 75mm shell was not too stressful to load and fire rapidly, and that's the same size as a Conqueror, IIRC. 

 

And I've met plenty of real world female artillerymen, and they're loading 155's for the duration of their fire support mission, even if two of them are picking it up..

 

 

 

Though given the setting and its clichés, I could see it as appropriate to assume that 40k is more "low-tech", meaning that in lieu of a contemporary autoloaders, shells have to be loaded manually and repairs in the field are much more labour-intensive. If the crew is even trained to conduct them, given the AdMech's monopoly...
 

 

Even low tech would have shell rammers and other loading aids.  I'd also bet that drum type autoloaders like the 13/90 uses are probably not unknown either, since it's similar to what we see on some autocannons in game.  I don't have a fluff source, but I 'm betting the Conqueror would use something like that, and know the Exterminator would.

 

There's a odd gap between the minis and the fluff gun calibers.  While the LR main cannon looks like it should be huge, it's actual diameter is something like 120mm according to FW, IIRC. a modern 120mm APDS weighs about 40 pounds.  The only tank I can think of that thus might be an issue is the demolisher, but the fluff shell weights for it are high enough there has to be a crane or something, unless the crew are actually Astartes or the gunner and loader both are lifting the shell.


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#92 Lynata

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 08:39 AM

And I've met plenty of real world female artillerymen, and they're loading 155's for the duration of their fire support mission, even if two of them are picking it up..

 

Though of course it'd cancel out the suggested advantage if you needed two ...

 

... but really, it's a non-issue. Female tankers have been a thing ever since Mariya and Aleksandra have been kicking Nazi arse in WW2.

 

There's a odd gap between the minis and the fluff gun calibers.  While the LR main cannon looks like it should be huge, it's actual diameter is something like 120mm according to FW, IIRC. a modern 120mm APDS weighs about 40 pounds.  The only tank I can think of that thus might be an issue is the demolisher, but the fluff shell weights for it are high enough there has to be a crane or something, unless the crew are actually Astartes or the gunner and loader both are lifting the shell.

 

Don't those stats differ heavily depending on which source you're looking at, anyways? I recall there was a huge disparity between Leman Russ armour thickness in White Dwarf and a Forgeworld book.

 

(ironically, I could even see this covered under the oft-misused "it's a big galaxy" rule - maybe there's just one or two workshops out there producing really crappy Russes because they're cheap and the Munitorum clerk's complaint is stuck in bureaucratic limbo)



#93 Robin Graves

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 11:48 AM

There's a odd gap between the minis and the fluff gun calibers.  While the LR main cannon looks like it should be huge, it's actual diameter is something like 120mm according to FW, IIRC. a modern 120mm APDS weighs about 40 pounds.  The only tank I can think of that thus might be an issue is the demolisher, but the fluff shell weights for it are high enough there has to be a crane or something, unless the crew are actually Astartes or the gunner and loader both are lifting the shell.

 

Don't those stats differ heavily depending on which source you're looking at, anyways? I recall there was a huge disparity between Leman Russ armour thickness in White Dwarf and a Forgeworld book.

 

(ironically, I could even see this covered under the oft-misused "it's a big galaxy" rule - maybe there's just one or two workshops out there producing really crappy Russes because they're cheap and the Munitorum clerk's complaint is stuck in bureaucratic limbo)

 

 

Yeah i remember a WD article when they first released the GW baneblade kit.  It mentioned non STC baneblades that lacked some onboard sythems and had diffrent weapons than the "offical STC" baneblade. They had two battle canons and a lascanon instead of the main gun, demolisher and coaxial autocannon. Now warp back to the early 90's and White Dwarf 132 wich had an article and rules to scratchbuilding a baneblade with- you guessed it- two battle canons 6 heavy bolters and 3 lascanons.


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