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Heal is light side only


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#1 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 03:45 PM

I wonder if the restriction on heal allowing only light side users could be changed to only allowing light side points to generate force pips to fuel the power?

 

This would make heal usable by dark side characters, but only at a rather high cost.  It feels a little like an arbitrary design to prevent dark side characters from using heal, as the same motion is made by both Obi-wan and Palpatine in a healing situation in the films.

 

 



#2 Castlecruncher

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:51 PM

As is, Dark Side users can heal and hurt their enemies at the same time if they upgrade their abilities enough. However, I do agree that Heal and Harm should work off of the Light and Dark Side points, respectively.


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#3 KevynnRedfern

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 11:27 AM

This is something that I was wondering about as well.  I do not like Heal or Harm being based off of the characters current relationship with which point he uses without spending Strain.

 

I intend to suggest the following to my table when it comes up:

 

Heal is fueled by light side points.

Harm is fueled by dark side points.

Both options are available to ANY character with the power.

 

I just cannot justify, thematically, a light side follower in turmoil being UNABLE (not the same thing as choosing not to) to harm a living thing; or a dark side follower not being ABLE to heal another living thing without extra damage somewhere.  Just because you currently spend dark side points without strain should not mean you cannot heal someone in need (I think The Force would probably WANT you to), likewise just because you currently spend light side points does not mean that you cannot cause pain with the force and fall faster to the quick and easy path...

 

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#4 kaosoe

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:44 PM

This is something that I was wondering about as well.  I do not like Heal or Harm being based off of the characters current relationship with which point he uses without spending Strain.

 

I intend to suggest the following to my table when it comes up:

 

Heal is fueled by light side points.

Harm is fueled by dark side points.

Both options are available to ANY character with the power.

 

I just cannot justify, thematically, a light side follower in turmoil being UNABLE (not the same thing as choosing not to) to harm a living thing; or a dark side follower not being ABLE to heal another living thing without extra damage somewhere.  Just because you currently spend dark side points without strain should not mean you cannot heal someone in need (I think The Force would probably WANT you to), likewise just because you currently spend light side points does not mean that you cannot cause pain with the force and fall faster to the quick and easy path...

 

Kevynn

 

Unless I am mistaking your post, this is how it is actually used.

 

"Each time a character uses the basic power, he must choose whether he is using Heal or Harm, and he receives only the effects associated with each choice."

 

So a paragon of the Light can still use harm, and a Darkside user can still use heal.

 

 

Edit: Ah. I was wrong. Good catch, all.


Edited by kaosoe, 28 August 2014 - 03:29 PM.

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#5 pnewman15

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:19 PM

Maybe Heal has to be Light side only to explain why Anakin couldn't use it to save Padme?

 

Assuming he even took the power, of course. Do we see him using Harm?



#6 Doctor Xerox

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:21 PM

Unless I am mistaking your post, this is how it is actually used.

 

"Each time a character uses the basic power, he must choose whether he is using Heal or Harm, and he receives only the effects associated with each choice."

 

So a paragon of the Light can still use harm, and a Darkside user can still use heal.

 

There is fairly clear wording on the power tree that only lightsiders can use heal. It is also present in the longer description in the text, but buried in the middle of a paragraph. Lightsiders can use Harm freely however.

 

I like it as is. Everywhere I've seen healing, the darkside is severely limited in what it can do. I could see certain situations I'd allow a darksider to heal with lightside pips as GM, mostly if they're already on the road to redemption (say, 50+ morality), but my untested stance is that the RAW works well.



#7 kaosoe

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:47 PM

That does raise a good point. It does say that in the breakdown of the power, but that conflicts with the paragraph above it. I don't mind either way which direction they go with, but that first paragraph should be more clear. As it stands, it is contradicting.


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#8 KevynnRedfern

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:47 PM

I just cannot get my brain wrapped around why it is IMPOSSIBLE for a dark side follower to heal someone without spending an additional 40 XP over the base power.  That just seems wrong.  Sure, if a dark side follower healed someone, I would expect pain to be inflicted as well (maybe strain damage, maybe less effective [half the effect of light side?])...

 

Kevynn



#9 evileeyore

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:59 PM

nless I am mistaking your post, this is how it is actually used.
 
"Each time a character uses the basic power, he must choose whether he is using Heal or Harm, and he receives only the effects associated with each choice."
 
So a paragon of the Light can still use harm, and a Darkside user can still use heal.

No. Heal is Light Sider only.


Granted I'm doing what KevynnRedfern is, but I figured I'd point out the RAW.
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#10 Agatheron

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 11:36 PM

Well... keep in mind that Palpatine used a heal force power on Anakin to preserve him long enough to get him to the cyborgifcation table. It even shows him doing so in the film... holding his hand on Anakin's forehead and saying "live."

 

So here's an example of the ultimate dark side force user using the Force to heal an individual...


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#11 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:10 AM

When I tackled the Heal power for my Ways of the Force supplement, instead of making the power only available to light side Force users, I simply made it so that the user had to spend light side Force Points, sort of like how the Influence power has that special rule that you have to spend light or dark side Force Points depending on which emotion you're creating.

 

I'd say the simplest fix for Heal/Harm is to incorporate that same requirement that Influence has.  If you want to Heal, you need to use light side pips to generate your Force Points, but if you want to use Harm, then you need to use those dark side pips instead.  This way, you've got dark siders that can do Force healing, but it's difficult for them to do, and a light sider that wants to use Harm is going to generate quite a bit of Conflict.


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#12 Demigonis

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:58 AM

Well... keep in mind that Palpatine used a heal force power on Anakin to preserve him long enough to get him to the cyborgifcation table. It even shows him doing so in the film... holding his hand on Anakin's forehead and saying "live."

 

So here's an example of the ultimate dark side force user using the Force to heal an individual...

I was intrigued by this so I decided to watch the scene again. (Multiple times at very high volume.) Palpatine doesn't say "live" or anything at all. To me it doesn't look to be implying the use of any force power whatsoever. To me it looks like Palpatine is checking on Anakin with a look of concern on his face while thinking to himself "Oh crap, don't tell me I'm going to lose my new apprentice already, I hope he pulls through. I only got him like 4 hours ago. Isn't there some kind of warranty? What's taking those blasted clone troopers so long with that medical capsule?!"

 

Okay, the last three sentences were a bit of a joke, obviously, but to me it doesn't look like any kind of healing took place.


Edited by Demigonis, 01 September 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#13 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:06 PM

Palpatine's motion is the same motion obi wan makes in ANH.  It's the only evidence of healing in the series, placing your hanfd on someone's forehead to cure them of various injuries (concussion, massive internal organ failure from being smoked over lava like a primeval hog).

 

I like the idea of restricting the harm/heal to their respective color force points, as that would place an extra restriction on harm, and make it slightly more challenging to activate than Bind and Unleash.



#14 Agatheron

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:26 PM

Keep in mind I don't have the beta yet, so I've not seen the written rules. I've always seen Palpatine's actions as a healing action, and thanks for the reminder of Kenobi's action from EpIV. Now Palpatine would have needed to spend strain in order to use light side pips, in my opinion.

I think this is one worth for feedback, and I will come back at this once I have my copy of the beta.

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#15 Demigonis

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 11:09 PM

To me it doesn't look like Palpatine's motion is at all the same as Obi-wan's motion in ANH. In Palpatine's scene (I'm watching both scenes right now) he reaches out, almost hesitantly, and barely touches Anakin's forehead with his fingertips for literally like two seconds, as if he's assessing damage and Anakin's chance of survival. In Obi-wan's case he kneels down beside Luke and places his hand upon his forehead for about 10 seconds, bowing his head and it appears much more purposeful. Also, in the script of ANH it says "Ben puts his hand on Luke's forehead and he begins to come around." That seems like evidence of some kind of healing taking place. With Palpatine it doesn't seem like there is any evidence to me. We're all free to have our own opinion on it, but to me it doesn't look like we've ever seen any canonical evidence of dark side healing that I can recall.


Edited by Demigonis, 01 September 2014 - 11:17 PM.


#16 Sturn

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 05:20 AM

To add some more confusion to the debate, consider this scene from Episode 3.

 

Throw in the Obi-Wan waking up Luke scene (no actual wounds, just unconscious), and you could argue the dark side heals Wounds only (taboo to the light side) while the light side heals Strain only.



#17 Atraangelis

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 09:52 AM

I'm going to have to stick with Lightside heal only. IF you want to play Dark side, live with the consequence you only "take life"...

 

I don't recall reading any book or comic where a Dark Side user used a HEALING ability, Not one!

 

If there are please post a reference...



#18 kaosoe

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:23 AM

In Legends, Cade Skywalker used a form of Force Healing called Dark Transfer that allowed him to heal mortal wounds. Originally, he was only able to utilize the ability by drawing on the dark side - imposing his will on the force. Eventually, he was able to heal without drawing on the dark side of the force.

 

That's the only example I am familiar with of a Dark Side use of Force Healing.


Edited by kaosoe, 02 September 2014 - 10:23 AM.

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#19 Demigonis

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:08 AM

To add some more confusion to the debate, consider this scene from Episode 3.

 

Throw in the Obi-Wan waking up Luke scene (no actual wounds, just unconscious), and you could argue the dark side heals Wounds only (taboo to the light side) while the light side heals Strain only.

This scene doesn't add confusion to me at all. The light side of the force using heal as per the game heals wounds not unlike a doctor would. The conversation about Darth Plagueis is not about 'healing', it's about 'playing god' and defying the natural order of the living force.

 

I'm not super interested in commenting too much on EU stuff, because I'm much more concerned with canon, but I don't think abilities like dark transfer are the same as heal/harm. I think they would/should be their own sort of power. I can believe the light side of the force can heal someone out of nothing. The dark side seems like it requires a cost, they can't just 'heal', they can simply 'take' life and redirect it. Steal it and reappropriate it, not give selflessly.


Edited by Demigonis, 02 September 2014 - 11:11 AM.


#20 Sturn

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:29 AM

 

To add some more confusion to the debate, consider this scene from Episode 3.

 

Throw in the Obi-Wan waking up Luke scene (no actual wounds, just unconscious), and you could argue the dark side heals Wounds only (taboo to the light side) while the light side heals Strain only.

This scene doesn't add confusion to me at all. The light side of the force using heal as per the game heals wounds not unlike a doctor would. The conversation about Darth Plagueis is not about 'healing', it's about 'playing god' and defying the natural order of the living force.

 

I would agree when looking at the first mention of this power in the clip, "to create life".  But, there are other quotes:

 

"keep the ones he cared about from dying"

 

"He could actually save people from death?"

 

"he could save others from death"

 

That does seem more necromantic then a description of healing, but in game terms what might be the difference? I suppose you could say the Sith couldn't heal Wounds like the Jedi, but could actually bring people back from actual death. This wouldn't be healing of the living, but raising of the dead so-to-speak. This could be an interesting lost art of the Sith to reveal.  A secret discovery of the Jedi was the ghost form after death. A secret power of the Sith could be a twisted version where a person could be ressurected into some sort of ichy "undead" Sith liche.  After a quick googling it looks like the EU has beat me to it with the "Korriban Zombie" and "Sith Undead".






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