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Too easy or too hard encounters


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#1 felismachina

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 03:45 PM

Recently i see that most enemies are too easy or too hard. My players have roughly 2500 exp and mostly basic equipment. They are sergant, tech priest and weapon specialist. So right now they mostly stomp basic enemies like renegade guardsman or ork boyz. Encounters are getting too easy and while i thought to give them harder enemies i think they can't even damage them with their lasguns. So i need a little advice what enemies should i throw at them so that encounter will be balanced. My second thought that maybe i should give them better equipment because with logistic 20 they can't even acquire basic stuff. But i am not sure if plasma, power weapons won't be too much while lasguns are too less



#2 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:52 PM

Curiousity point for me here, actually:

How are they stomping orkz with lasguns?



#3 Magus Black

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:55 PM

Curiousity point for me here, actually:

How are they stomping orkz with lasguns?

 

They probably have the Lasgun Mastery Talents from Hammer of the Emperor is my guess.

 

But to the OP what kind of strategy are you applying to your enemies, do you employ sneak attacks and hit and runs?

 

...and what did they do to piss of the clerks enough to keep them at 20 Logistics?


Edited by Magus Black, 23 August 2014 - 05:55 PM.


#4 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:39 AM

Plausible, but yes, knowing how they tend to crack a nut would make it simpler to suggest approaches. What does your group typically do and what talents/BS/WS do they roughly have? :)



#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:42 PM

Increase the number of enemies. Have them come from different directions.

 

OW actually has a relatively "realistic" combat system as far as RPGs go and a sufficient number of enemies who are playd intelligently will kiill anyone.

 

EDIT: yeah, how are you stomping Orks wiith lasguns? If it's because you're having them die at 0 Wounds, that's your problem.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 24 August 2014 - 07:43 PM.

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#6 TorogTarkdacil812

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:57 AM

Scare them. No seriously, bring a bunch of Fear and other Willpower checks on their heads. Guersome displays of orc savagery*, weirdboy intrusive telepathy (now I am not sure they have such power in OW, but they use it in fluff, some use somehting from telepathy discipline) or hit them with ork mushroom gas, with Hallucinogenic grenade effect**.

 

It is not as much what is the enemy as how you build the encounter around them. It is not bad they are good at killing the enemies, they are the player characters and guys playing them invested their time, out and ingame experience to build them. Just show them that combat is not everything.

 

 

*Jaded talent is in my opinion, mandatory

**oh are they wearing gasmasks? shame the -10 to Awareness due to the poor vision,, with all those squig hunter-killers and Kommando ambushes...

 

EDIT (including grammar, I apologize as my written English is really rusted): Same as Willpower and Fear, Perception and Awareness are good way to raise the stakes/mess with the PCs. Booby traps and mines are hell of the thing to gave players out of game Paranoia. Or feeling high and mighty against the poor Dominate separatist? Give them Stealth+10 and Ambush talents, BS boost and long las to every tenth (you are GM, you can do that). After that, just get a hypothetical popcorn and enjoy. Bonus points for using this as soundtrack to the session https://www.youtube....h?v=m05gv8x54vw


Edited by TorogTarkdacil812, 25 August 2014 - 05:19 AM.

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There is nothing as good as seeing rebel scum running out of a cave full of gas, right into the blasters of your battalion-–well, except sunrises, but for those you have to get up early.


#7 Commediante

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:47 AM

Use weak units and play them well or use strong units and play them crappy. You can quickly turn 3 npc guardsmen into warmachine with one of them laying surpressing fire and the other two shooting and throwing grenades at your players.

Or the opposite. You can throw at them a csm, but lets say that this particular fellow likes to crush his foes with his fists only...

There are many adjustments you can make depending on situation- arena, combatants, dices.

#8 felismachina

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 04:43 PM

Ok to clarify they don't fight orks. Mostly renegade militia chaos cultist. I give you one example of fight. 3 players and 3 squadmates against 6 chaos cultist. First round specialist throws grenade 2 enemies die. Sergant charge with chainsword 1 cultist eating dirt. Tech priest atack with mechandrite another cultist down. Rest of squad fire and destroy leftovers.

So after that i decided for harder fight 3 terror cats from against the savage adventure from rulebook. End results half squad dead.

 

 

Increase the number of enemies. Have them come from different directions.

 

OW actually has a relatively "realistic" combat system as far as RPGs go and a sufficient number of enemies who are playd intelligently will kiill anyone.

 

EDIT: yeah, how are you stomping Orks wiith lasguns? If it's because you're having them die at 0 Wounds, that's your problem.

 

Well yes, i think that enemies should die at 0 wounds unless it's kind of a boss fight. Also if they roll 10 on dice i threat it as instakill. I like fights fast and even with that some can take up to half hour since i use lots of narration to describe every attack.



#9 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 04:50 PM

That's your problem then. Orks are constructed around their True Grit Talent, which literally just about triples their durability. Orks are supposed to take absurd amounts of damage and keep coming, which is what the combination of TB6 and True Grit lets them do. If you don't let then use it, and especially if you have them die on a 10, of course they won't be a challenge for your players. What you've done is change the rules so that they became weak. Just either start using rules as written, or (and I understand that tallying up critical hits can be a pain) increase the wounds of enemies by 1.5 and of Orks by 3 times. And get rid of death on a 10. You cannot have house rules that make enemies die easily and then wonder why they die easily. ;)

 

Or let NPCs kill PCs on a 10 and have PCs die at 0 Wounds.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 25 August 2014 - 04:59 PM.


#10 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 05:02 PM

Chaos-gardsmen have one or two mutations, usually. If you want to spice things up, maybe have one be possessed or toss a psyker into the mix. Also, start out of grenade range :D



#11 TorogTarkdacil812

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 05:07 PM

What are the enviromental conditions of fight? Have you tried cultists to throw granades, or at least firebombs?  Use cover and supressing fire? Spring ambush (sudden inspiration: in Bill King´s Fall of Macharius, Nurgle Renegades murder a whole platoon, while it was their turn in bowel-relieving trechn.. by hiding IN the latrine :(). Or to reiterate what I said before, give them Stealth and Ambush Talents and use them. Or make them horribly disfigured by ritual scars that they cause Fear 1 (and anybody using Aim action at them, will notice that the scars are moving, so Fear 2).

 

It is often rather pointless to throw enemies at the PCs. Unless it serves the story, they might get this group of heretics, but other might be more devious. And another twenty times as strong.


There is nothing as good as seeing rebel scum running out of a cave full of gas, right into the blasters of your battalion-–well, except sunrises, but for those you have to get up early.


#12 LuciusT

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:13 PM

Well yes, i think that enemies should die at 0 wounds unless it's kind of a boss fight. Also if they roll 10 on dice i threat it as instakill. I like fights fast and even with that some can take up to half hour since i use lots of narration to describe every attack.

 

When you change the rules to make encounters easier, and then wonder why the encounters are too easy...

 

I'm not saying I disagree with your house rules btw. I've often run games when 0 wounds = death (not with orks) and still found combat taking a while. However, if you're finding your house rules make the game to easy/not fun, that's a good time to reassess the effects of those rules.


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#13 Commediante

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 10:06 AM

I dont think critical damage makes this game so complicated. That may be the case if you flow your players with horde of enemies, but how many times are you going to force your players to do so? Its gonna get boring. Sometimes its a good moment to play small skirmish and thats where CD shines. They ve given me and my players ones of most hillarious moments ever in RPG.

#14 Visitor Q

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:58 AM

Ok to clarify they don't fight orks. Mostly renegade militia chaos cultist. I give you one example of fight. 3 players and 3 squadmates against 6 chaos cultist. First round specialist throws grenade 2 enemies die. Sergant charge with chainsword 1 cultist eating dirt. Tech priest atack with mechandrite another cultist down. Rest of squad fire and destroy leftovers.
So after that i decided for harder fight 3 terror cats from against the savage adventure from rulebook. End results half squad dead.
 
 

Increase the number of enemies. Have them come from different directions.
 
OW actually has a relatively "realistic" combat system as far as RPGs go and a sufficient number of enemies who are playd intelligently will kiill anyone.
 
EDIT: yeah, how are you stomping Orks wiith lasguns? If it's because you're having them die at 0 Wounds, that's your problem.

 
Well yes, i think that enemies should die at 0 wounds unless it's kind of a boss fight. Also if they roll 10 on dice i threat it as instakill. I like fights fast and even with that some can take up to half hour since i use lots of narration to describe every attack.
If orks die on 0 wounds you definitely need to give them 4-8 extra wounds to compensate them for loss of true grit.

#15 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:42 PM

 

Increase the number of enemies. Have them come from different directions.
 
OW actually has a relatively "realistic" combat system as far as RPGs go and a sufficient number of enemies who are playd intelligently will kiill anyone.
 
EDIT: yeah, how are you stomping Orks wiith lasguns? If it's because you're having them die at 0 Wounds, that's your problem.

 
Well yes, i think that enemies should die at 0 wounds unless it's kind of a boss fight. Also if they roll 10 on dice i threat it as instakill. I like fights fast and even with that some can take up to half hour since i use lots of narration to describe every attack.
If orks die on 0 wounds you definitely need to give them 4-8 extra wounds to compensate them for loss of true grit.

 

 

More than that, I think. If you look at the Titan post, I just did the math and it takes an absolute minimum of 10 hits with a boltgun to kill a naked Ork nob (assuming no blood loss or damage-increasing talents etc.)

 

To get him to perform like this if he dies at 0 Wounds he'll need 60 of them.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 04 September 2014 - 10:42 PM.


#16 Alrik Vas

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:04 PM

It sounds like you're making it too easy all on your own. at close range an autopistol can down a stormtrooper. Nothing in thus game is invincible to small arms unless its behind heavy armor, not even a space marine.

Also, if the players are attacking, they'll have to deal with fortified positions. Nothing puts a cramp in a guardsman's day quite like a burst from a heavy stubber. Nothing ruins a charge quite like suppressive fire from an auto canon.

These enemies would have cover, can fire from way beyond grenade range and can throw such a mass of ruins down range that your players will have to think beyond, "chuck grenade, charge, mop up."

#17 Elmer84

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 04:26 AM

 

Ok to clarify they don't fight orks. Mostly renegade militia chaos cultist. I give you one example of fight. 3 players and 3 squadmates against 6 chaos cultist. First round specialist throws grenade 2 enemies die. Sergant charge with chainsword 1 cultist eating dirt. Tech priest atack with mechandrite another cultist down. Rest of squad fire and destroy leftovers.

 

First, are those "3 squadmates" their comrades? if so they shouldn't be counted toward the shooting ones, comrades just don't do that, their fire just augments the abilities of PCs.

Second, do they always win the initiative? How about a cultist or two having a "natural" 10 on the initiative die, even with average stats they would have 12-14 initiative, and that is not so easy to beat.

Third, if that was an ambush made by PCs, if so than ok, slaughter ensues and GI win. If they see each other from afar and it's a fair fight, than a standard flashlight can shine at about 100m and more (funny thing with rules the "range" in the table is neither maximal, short or long, it's twice the short and half the long). Cultists can use granades as well, also a charge isn't that long, and after that you usually end up in open field, let him run op to a cover, and than one of the cultists uses "overwatch" on his location.

Fourth, cover cover and cover, that mechadendrite is fine and all but how will it shoot a cultist who is hidden behing a concrete wall with AP of 12-14? Answer: not very efficiently.

 

Also, things that had been said already by other people, no instakill, that is just... bad, it takes away so much fun, especially on orcs, I remember the emotions from the last game when my character shot an orc in a head point blank with a bolter pistol (one shot was ~11 dam, and the other was emperors fury with a whooping ~15 dam) and that damn bastard was still standing. Remeber, don't be afraid of giving them smarter enemies, or harder fights, this is not epic fantasy where they are heroes who will save the world, this is grimdark, kill or maim (I especially like the second one) theire characters, make them feel it.






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