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Haldir and Dunhere


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#1 Tracker1

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:22 PM

If i had these to in the same deck could each hero attack the same enemy in the staging area at different times of the combat phase? So, could haldir make an attack and then Dunhere make an attack?

The rulebook states that you can only declare 1 attack on each enemy engaged. It does not comment on how many attacks can be declared if the enemy is not engaged.

Dunhere text does say if he attacks alone, but i read Haldir like Quick Strike which can grant an additional attack on the same enemy in the same combat phase.

Further, can Haldir attack an enemy that engaged the previous round cor the normal attack, and then attack it again using his combat action, as long as no new enemies were engaged that round?
'At last' said Aragorn 'Here are the tracks that we seek!'

#2 Teamjimby

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:39 PM

I don't think you can combine the attacks because Haldir's attack is an action, not a regular attack like Dunhere.



#3 Tracker1

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:36 PM

I'm not suggesting combining them.

 

Let's say Haldir attacks the enemy in the staging area at the beginning of the combat phase, and then Dunhere makes his attack on the same enemy in the staging area later in the combat phase.


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#4 GrandSpleen

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 11:18 PM

I wondered the same thing as soon as I saw Haldir's ability, but the FAQ prevents it:
 
"If, through card effects such as ranged, a player is able
to declare attacks against enemies with which he is
not engaged, he is still only permitted a single attack
against each of these enemies."


#5 alogos

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:49 AM

Dunhere can declare an attack, but Haldir is an action that declare him as an attacker, like Swift  Quick Strike. Thus Dunhere count towards your attack limit, but not Haldir, you are just exhausting him, not making a regular attack.


Edited by alogos, 23 August 2014 - 07:19 AM.


#6 Noccus

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:16 AM

Nope, i would love this to work too, but if you read grandspleen his quote, you can't do this.
Haldir is a card effect, and so there is no chance for a second attack according to this FAQ rule.
Shame though.
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#7 Tracker1

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:51 AM

Interesting, I don't play 2 player, but I always thought player 1 could exhaust a ranged character and play quickstrike on an enemey engaged with player 2 and then ready that character and then declare a ranged attack on the same enemy during player 1 combat phase, and ready again to participate in an attack declared by player 2 on the same enemy

Sorry if I am completely bashing these rules, it's been a long time since playing 2 player
'At last' said Aragorn 'Here are the tracks that we seek!'

#8 alogos

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:19 AM

Nope, i would love this to work too, but if you read grandspleen his quote, you can't do this.
Haldir is a card effect, and so there is no chance for a second attack according to this FAQ rule.
Shame though.

 

the rest of the quote 

 

 

Characters are not limited as to how many times they
can participate in attacks against the same enemy,
provided each attack can be legally declared, and the
character is ready and eligible to be declared as an
attacker.

 

 

The limitation of attack's declaration is thoses made by players.

In case of Haldir and Quick Strike, the player does not declare an attack, those you bypass the limit.


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#9 Tracker1

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:16 AM

Okay, to sum it up, a player controlling both Haldir and Dunhere can attack the same enemy in the staging area at different times during the combat phase.
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#10 Noccus

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:27 AM

Nope, i would love this to work too, but if you read grandspleen his quote, you can't do this.
Haldir is a card effect, and so there is no chance for a second attack according to this FAQ rule.
Shame though.

 
the rest of the quote 
 
 

Characters are not limited as to how many times they
can participate in attacks against the same enemy,
provided each attack can be legally declared, and the
character is ready and eligible to be declared as an
attacker.

 
The limitation of attack's declaration is thoses made by players.
In case of Haldir and Quick Strike, the player does not declare an attack, those you bypass the limit.

Eh? That's odd. Doesn't this contradict the 1st part of the quote grandspleen posted completely?

Confused camel here....
How about we ask Caleb to be sure?
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#11 GrandSpleen

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:42 AM

Guys, guys, guys.  Haldir and Quick Strike both make you "declare" an attack.  It's in the card text!  There is no bypass from Declaration Highway here.  

 

Interesting, I don't play 2 player, but I always thought player 1 could exhaust a ranged character and play quickstrike on an enemey engaged with player 2 and then ready that character and then declare a ranged attack on the same enemy during player 1 combat phase, and ready again to participate in an attack declared by player 2 on the same enemy

 

 

Then for this: Player 1 has an Orc engaged.  Player 2 has a ranged Elf.  He can use Quickstrike, exhaust Mr. Elf, and attack Player 1's Orc.  That is one attack declaration.  Then if he can ready Mr. Elf, he can participate in an attack declared by Player 1 against the same Orc.  He cannot, however, declare his own new attack against the same Orc even if he can be readied a third time.


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#12 alogos

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:44 AM

Well, for me, it is

Haldir and Quick Strike both make you  them "declare" an attack.

I'll ask Caleb then.



#13 7theye

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:45 AM

Someone ask Caleb please. Only way to know.

#14 blinky

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:26 AM



Dunhere can declare an attack, but Haldir is an action that declare him as an attacker, like Swift  Quick Strike. Thus Dunhere count towards your attack limit, but not Haldir, you are just exhausting him, not making a regular attack.

 

Yeah, I think this is correct, going off the (almost) identical wording to Quick Strike and this clarification from Nate.

 

EDIT: I don't think this:

 


"If, through card effects such as ranged, a player is able
to declare attacks against enemies with which he is
not engaged, he is still only permitted a single attack
against each of these enemies."

 

applies to Haldir or Quick Strike because that refers to declaring attacks using the standard game framework.


Edited by blinky, 24 August 2014 - 04:30 AM.


#15 GrandSpleen

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:15 AM

 

 

applies to Haldir or Quick Strike because that refers to declaring attacks using the standard game framework.

 

 

On the other hand, 'immune' cards can be affected by Quick Strike, and the entire justification behind this in the FAQ is that Quick Strike, unlike Hands Upon the Bow, simply enables a standard game framework effect (declaring an attack).  So if Quick Strike falls into the 'framework effect' category, these limits should apply, yes?


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#16 Noccus

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:44 AM

@ alogos: any word from Caleb yet?
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#17 blinky

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:09 PM

 

 

 

applies to Haldir or Quick Strike because that refers to declaring attacks using the standard game framework.

 

 

On the other hand, 'immune' cards can be affected by Quick Strike, and the entire justification behind this in the FAQ is that Quick Strike, unlike Hands Upon the Bow, simply enables a standard game framework effect (declaring an attack).  So if Quick Strike falls into the 'framework effect' category, these limits should apply, yes?

 

 

Yes, they probably should.  :)

 

Except that they're already ruled you can use Quick Strike to attack the same enemy twice.

 

Could you argue that it's the declaration (rather than the attack as a whole) that is limited, and that Quick Strike performs the declaration as a card effect? I'm not sure at this point!



#18 GrandSpleen

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:36 PM

Well, that ruling from Nate is 2 years old and doesn't appear in the FAQ.  The designers previously ruled that Hands Upon the Bow could be used to target immune enemies (now it cannot) and that shadow cards did not count as "encounter cards" (now they do).  We'll just have to wait and see what Caleb says.



#19 alogos

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:54 PM

@ alogos: any word from Caleb yet?

 

not yet. week end might explain things.



#20 GrandSpleen

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:28 PM

While we wait for an answer, here's another question for you: say you've got Merry/Pippin/Sam or some such deck.  If you were to play Hobbit-sense...

 

Hobbit-sense.png

 

Would you say you could then use Quick Strike to attack enemies?  Or if you played this, then got Haldir from another player via Desperate Alliance, would it be a legal play to use his ability to attack enemies (provided they were already engaged this turn)?






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