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Force power: Move


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#41 Smitehappy

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:54 AM

 

The OPness of Move aside, if you want to not have a Nemesis thrown off a clip the Beta Force and Destiny book has a but about resisting being thrown by an opposed Willpower Vs. Resilliance roll or resisting your weapon being pulled away by an Opposed Athletics roll.

 

Does it really? Awesome. What page is that on? I can't wait to get my hands on the FnD beta.

 

Page 195 in Force and Destiny, it's the giant red box at the bottom. Also keep in mind that if you make a bad guy Force Sensative any force powers used against him/her can be an opposed Discipline check.


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#42 FuriousGreg

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 05:36 PM

I like this. You could, rather than up the Force Pip cost make a resistance roll against silhouette + number when over silhouette 1. Silhouette 1 objects wouldn't require an opposed roll unless they are Nemesis, this way you don't gimp Force users on the personal scale but for larger objects you make it more difficult.
So Moving 1 sil. 2 object is Difficulty 1 vs the PCs Will and Force Rating (or some other combination), 2 = dif 2, etc. A sol 3 object would be difficulty 2+the number etc.
(A PC, for example, with Will 3 and FR 2 would be YYG)

 

I think this would be fair.


Edited by FuriousGreg, 25 August 2014 - 05:38 PM.

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#43 shlominus

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:15 AM

some great ideas for nerfing "move" here! ^_^



#44 kinnison

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:14 PM

To repeat some earlier comments.  I have always thought that using Force move/push/throw to harm someone is blatantly a dark side use of the power.  Except for maybe a knockdown effect.

 

But honestly, it he starts villain chucking a lot, SOMEONE in maybe in Black armor, black helmet, and Cape with a red lightsaber is going to wonder who is causing such a disturbance in the force and investigate, hoping to find the stupid farmboy who has his other lightsaber


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#45 LexMajor

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 02:35 PM

Slighly side-tracking this thread to mention AT-AT really should have been Silhouette 5, anyway.


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#46 koblih123

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:09 AM

Am I correct if I say that u can earn only 2 FR in EotE ? Coz u get one from specialization and another one from last talent ?? Thx.



#47 2P51

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:37 AM

Yes, 2 FR can be earned in EoE.


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#48 koblih123

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:43 AM

OK thx. So if u play only EotE u can't be OP.



#49 2P51

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 08:34 AM

Move, depending on how you choose to interpret the rules is still pretty wicked even with FR2.


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#50 GoblynByte

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 04:49 PM

I've not seen anything mentioned of the balancing factor of needing to succeed at a Discipline check to move objects to attack things with the proverbial AT-AT. Even if you interpret the RAW to mean that +1 FP spent jumps you up to silhouette equal to number of Strength upgrades (which I really do think that's the way it is written), you must still succeed at that check to do any good with it. You must roll enough successes and enough FP. That's not as easy as it sounds.

So, if you maxed out on Strength and Range upgrades, and jumped up to a FR of 2 (which, assuming your player is a complete cheeseball and took the shortest route possible to intentionally annoy everyone around him, would require at least 200 XP)...

 

1 FP to activate Move

+1 FP to jump up to Silhouette 4

+1 FP to Increase the range.

 

Note that this does not include the XP cost and odds of also succeeding at a Daunting (4) Discipline check.

I just did 10 test rolls with a FR 2 and a Discipline skill of 2 ability + 2 proficiency. Out of those 10 rolls I only came up with one that produced even one success and enough LS points to fuel the power. Two other rolls produced one success and enough DS points to fuel the power.

I dunno... this sounds like a high XP investment for a relatively low success rate. Who is going to want to take a chance of 1 in 10 while an AT-AT is plodding towards them?

I should also note that f you're not the type of GM who would use the tools at your disposal (allowing them to use DS points without fear), you're missing out on the inherent concepts that balance the powers. Not to mention the fact that if someone does something as flamboyant as throwing an AT-AT at someone they will likely have the entire might of the ISB hunting them down. A considerable portion of the Empire's resources is being devoted to finding characters that can do that sort of thing and wiping them from existence. If you're not factoring in such story-based elements, you're not factoring in the assumed balancing factors of the game. That's not a power that is OP. That is a user that is ignoring vital aspects.

 

Now, as for simply pushing over an AT-AT... well, same argument above... the Empire would take notice. Aside from that, look at it from a "so what?" perspective. So he can knock over an AT-AT. So what? Looks great and scary, but when you boil it down to what has actually been accomplished... he took out one enemy. If your encounter is derailed by the loss of a single AT-AT... Don't rely so much on brute strength to make your encounters interesting.

 

Perhaps from a mechanical standpoint Move can be a bit overpowered. But there are a lot of ways to balance it out in session.

 


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#51 bubblepopmei

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 10:03 AM

I think conflict does a lot to offset this. Also, the risk of rolling black pips makes it all the more dangerous. 

 

Above all, one-shotting an exciting nemesis makes for a boring game. The villains get away to terrorize the PCs another day, remember? 

 

If you want the NPC to stick around, do a deus ex and pull the chute. When it makes sense and feels right to have them die it will be more satisfying for the PCs.



#52 Christophermarshall6

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:15 PM

I think the the upgrades on the move tree are saying a force user would have to spend a force point for every size above sil. 0, or +1 force point for each sil. 1 FP to activate move, 1 FP for sil. 1, 2 FP for sil 2, 3 FP for sil 3 etc. plus an additional FP for every upgrade used. Otherwise that does not fit with the movies at all. Jedi Masters would be throwing around Star Destroyers and would not have needed Clone Troops. Interpreting this any other way is just wanting to abuse the system for the sake of proving it is broken. Any who, the real answer would be to ask the DEVs.


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#53 whafrog

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:35 PM

I think the the upgrades on the move tree are saying a force user would have to spend a force point for every size above sil. 0, or +1 force point for each sil. 1 FP to activate move, 1 FP for sil. 1, 2 FP for sil 2, 3 FP for sil 3 etc. plus an additional FP for every upgrade used.

 

No, you activating the Strength upgrade requires only 1 pip, regardless of how many Strength upgrades you've purchased.  I agree with you that it should be at least a pip per Silhouette, but that's currently not as written.



#54 Christophermarshall6

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:57 PM

I noticed the CRB has a sentace at the end of the Range power which reminds the player, the force user must use force points to activate the power's actual effects. This is also present at the end of the magnitude description, but not present in the strength description. Is this the difference then? 1 FP regardless of sil. but 1 FP per range band and 1 FP per number of objects?



#55 whafrog

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 02:41 PM

No, they're all the same:  1FP to trigger the upgrade, regardless of how many upgrades have been purchased.



#56 GoblynByte

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 05:32 PM

One thing to note: Move may be one of the more combat effective and over powered powers. But it is also one of the most grossly obvious. Short of the infamous Force Lightning, it is probably the most vulgar use of the Force we see in the movies. The act of throwing large vehicles around would be especially difficult to do with subtlety. So one of the inherent balancing factors of Move - one that reigns it in more than any other power - is the fact that lots of people will notice significantly increasing the chance that word gets back to the powers that will rain hell on you (possibly from orbit).

 

This is not just a punitive hammer. It is a preventative measure. Players will (or at least should) show restraint in many situations. So, while Move may be powerful, the situations in which it will be smart to use can be managed by the GM.



#57 Christophermarshall6

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 06:50 AM

One thing to note: Move may be one of the more combat effective and over powered powers. But it is also one of the most grossly obvious. Short of the infamous Force Lightning, it is probably the most vulgar use of the Force we see in the movies. The act of throwing large vehicles around would be especially difficult to do with subtlety. So one of the inherent balancing factors of Move - one that reigns it in more than any other power - is the fact that lots of people will notice significantly increasing the chance that word gets back to the powers that will rain hell on you (possibly from orbit).

 

This is not just a punitive hammer. It is a preventative measure. Players will (or at least should) show restraint in many situations. So, while Move may be powerful, the situations in which it will be smart to use can be managed by the GM.

Excellent point.


Edited by Christophermarshall6, 06 November 2014 - 06:50 AM.





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