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#141 Nimsim

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 11:44 AM

It's FFG's product and intellectual property.  No one is forcing anyone to buy it.  Either accept their artistic license in expressing their work the way they do or don't.  The kind of 'soft censorship' the OP is describing is corrosive to creativity IMHO.

 
You're confusing criticism with censorship. They are very, very different things.
 
And the whole 'well nobody forces you to buy it' is a lazy way of excusing bad behavior. Nothing is above criticism, and being a published product does not somehow isolate it from being critically evaluated.

No, cps, point/counterpoint editorials are just practices in mutual censorship DONT YOU SEE

#142 GauntZero

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 11:55 AM

 

They are steel and they are doom. Of course they can aim properly in this armour ! ;D

 

Space Wolves aim by smell, right? ;)

 

 

I just am quite sure that they do smell. If they also aim by smelling ios beyond my knowledge, but it sounds reliable.


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#143 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:13 PM

I really don't see a reason to not exclusively use male pronouns. Even if it's exclusionary there's no reason to change it. Being exclusionary does not effect the game's rules or play.


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#144 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:18 PM

 

I remember in ancient times (Rolemaster ;) ) there used to be a little proviso at the beginning of each book that read: The use of male pronouns (he, Him, His) is simply is meant in the abstract and explicitely NOT to exclude the female. feel free to substitute as necessary.
Happy gaming!

Tribe 8 by Dream Pod 9 uses the female gender with a disclaimer inclusion of the male and non-specified gender. It's just a neat twist on the idea.
Still, I believe that language is inherently oppressive, so I lean towards being as neuter as possible.

 

You believe language is oppressive? Does language oppress people?

 

 

 

 

Also, I'd really like people to sit and think about how they'd feel if the start of the book said that it would only be using the female pronoun for simplicity AND had no art of men on the cover. I'll be honest, I'd feel a little miffed by that, and be left wondering if maybe the game isn't intended to be played by men. I imagine a similar feeling happens for women. It probably isn't voiced as muh because it's so commonplace, though. Seriously, imagine yourself in that scenario and use a bit of empathy.

 

I don't see how that's relevant. Men would be a bit miffed because the writers know that they're using language in a non-standard way to make a point across.

 

I seriously think we should keep our external motives outside of RPG games. These games exist to be played, not to acknowledge anyone's pet peeves.


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#145 cps

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:38 PM

I really don't see a reason to not exclusively use male pronouns. Even if it's exclusionary there's no reason to change it. Being exclusionary does not effect the game's rules or play.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself so you can read this and not be ignorant on this topic anymore.

 

 

I don't get the fear of pronoun, or how it has this mystical power that stop people from playing games.  I never seen this stop anyone at all.  In fact they played whatever they want in my games without any hassle.  They even played game with a lot male pronouns without any hinderance.

 

If you're honestly curious about the effects of pronoun usage and why the default 'he' is problematic here's a good place to start:
https://contentequal...ronouns-matter/

 

It's not specific to gaming at all.  Let me know what you think!

 

 

This is just one of many things written on the topic of the real world effects of the way we use language. Go educate yourself so you don't have these bad opinions.



#146 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:39 PM

I remember in ancient times (Rolemaster  ;) ) there used to be a little proviso at the beginning of each book that read: The use of male pronouns (he, Him, His) is simply is meant in the abstract and explicitely NOT to exclude the female. feel free to substitute as necessary!

 

While in the current Hyper-sensitive politically correct world this would somehow be viewed as insensitive it should be noted that it was intended exactly the opposite! I don't feel that anything ffg has written is really intended to exclude women. What people need to realize is that it is full of some hyper stereotyped images! From the Giant Uber bodybuilders of the Catachan regiments to the leather clad Assassins of the blood cults there are any number of images that could give a person body-type issues. My response to complaints of this type of thing tend to run toward: It's a fantasy game, Deal with it!

 

Inclusion is another matter: FFG has, especially in recent times, gone out of their way to include the female version of many of their character types. I noted that in RT faith and coin made very specific efforts to include a female missionary in that work! The first I recall personally seeing. This is a good thing! It's progress. And to keep the trolls of the world happy, She wasn't dressed in a spandex suit either! (Also a good thing since it wouldn't have made sense!) My point here is this: A little cheesecake in the setting (Male or female) does not bother me. But I would hope the game and the industry as a whole would be welcoming of any Gender race, or whatever!

 

Happy gaming!

I think this sums up the issue nicely. There are many out there that feel that unless their group identity is given an explicit nod of approval they are not being welcomed.

 

Of course this is not the case. 40k is one of the most diverse universes out there. You have Rogue Traders with Eldar wives, ork freebootas, and Deldar Wyches in their retinue.

 

Adding female "inclusionary" pronouns onto this diversity train is a bit uneccessary at that point? You can't get more diverse than being able to and encouraged to play a 20 year old female missionary with a flamethrower arm.

 

Anyway, the game is all the matters. 40k is still my favorite universe, and I'm just glad FFG picked up the license and has supported it as much as they have.


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#147 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:44 PM

 

I really don't see a reason to not exclusively use male pronouns. Even if it's exclusionary there's no reason to change it. Being exclusionary does not effect the game's rules or play.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself so you can read this and not be ignorant on this topic anymore.

 

 

I don't get the fear of pronoun, or how it has this mystical power that stop people from playing games.  I never seen this stop anyone at all.  In fact they played whatever they want in my games without any hassle.  They even played game with a lot male pronouns without any hinderance.

 

If you're honestly curious about the effects of pronoun usage and why the default 'he' is problematic here's a good place to start:
https://contentequal...ronouns-matter/

 

It's not specific to gaming at all.  Let me know what you think!

 

 

This is just one of many things written on the topic of the real world effects of the way we use language. Go educate yourself so you don't have these bad opinions.

 

Whoah there sir! Bad opinions? Real world effects of language?

 

I'm sorry but this is highly inappropriate. I'm not even going to begin arguing against that source. Fantasy Flight Games has been courteous enough to put out a great product (that's not exclusionary in the least). Their job is to make a good game.

 

They don't need to self censor just because it might offend someone's real world agenda. This is like when one of the author's of Borderlands acknowledged that his writing may actually harm the game he's making but it doesn't matter because his personal beliefs are superior to that of the quality of the game.

 

That is unacceptable.


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#148 Nimsim

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:45 PM

I really don't see a reason to not exclusively use male pronouns. Even if it's exclusionary there's no reason to change it. Being exclusionary does not effect the game's rules or play.

 

Ah yes, the "this doesn't affect me so don't change it" defense.

 

 

 

 

I remember in ancient times (Rolemaster ;) ) there used to be a little proviso at the beginning of each book that read: The use of male pronouns (he, Him, His) is simply is meant in the abstract and explicitely NOT to exclude the female. feel free to substitute as necessary.
Happy gaming!

Tribe 8 by Dream Pod 9 uses the female gender with a disclaimer inclusion of the male and non-specified gender. It's just a neat twist on the idea.
Still, I believe that language is inherently oppressive, so I lean towards being as neuter as possible.

 

You believe language is oppressive? Does language oppress people?

 

Yeah man, go call some black people the n-word, or better yet refer to them as "boy" and then tell them they're not being oppressed.

 

Also, I'd really like people to sit and think about how they'd feel if the start of the book said that it would only be using the female pronoun for simplicity AND had no art of men on the cover. I'll be honest, I'd feel a little miffed by that, and be left wondering if maybe the game isn't intended to be played by men. I imagine a similar feeling happens for women. It probably isn't voiced as muh because it's so commonplace, though. Seriously, imagine yourself in that scenario and use a bit of empathy.

 

I don't see how that's relevant. Men would be a bit miffed because the writers know that they're using language in a non-standard way to make a point across.

 

I seriously think we should keep our external motives outside of RPG games. These games exist to be played, not to acknowledge anyone's pet peeves.

 

 

Ah yes, how is me putting the shoe on the other foot relevant when you make the argument that if something doesn't affect you it shouldn't matter?

 

CPS linked a lovely article about why this kind of thing actually matters to people. There's also the fact that language shapes how we think, and if you use the male pronoun only you end up having the reader only think of men when reading. Thus, people don't think about women playing the game.

 

You're taking a game about imagining yourself as something that takes no steps to help women imagine themselves as something (other than a sex object) and claiming it's open to women. This is like claiming a building is open to everyone but having no women's bathrooms and no handicap ramps.

 

Openness is not the same as accessibility. You can claim to be open to everyone, but if they have to put in extra work to get in, it's not really accessible to them.



#149 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:53 PM

 

I really don't see a reason to not exclusively use male pronouns. Even if it's exclusionary there's no reason to change it. Being exclusionary does not effect the game's rules or play.

 

Ah yes, the "this doesn't affect me so don't change it" defense.

 

 

 

 

I remember in ancient times (Rolemaster ;) ) there used to be a little proviso at the beginning of each book that read: The use of male pronouns (he, Him, His) is simply is meant in the abstract and explicitely NOT to exclude the female. feel free to substitute as necessary.
Happy gaming!

Tribe 8 by Dream Pod 9 uses the female gender with a disclaimer inclusion of the male and non-specified gender. It's just a neat twist on the idea.
Still, I believe that language is inherently oppressive, so I lean towards being as neuter as possible.

 

You believe language is oppressive? Does language oppress people?

 

Yeah man, go call some black people the n-word, or better yet refer to them as "boy" and then tell them they're not being oppressed.

 

Also, I'd really like people to sit and think about how they'd feel if the start of the book said that it would only be using the female pronoun for simplicity AND had no art of men on the cover. I'll be honest, I'd feel a little miffed by that, and be left wondering if maybe the game isn't intended to be played by men. I imagine a similar feeling happens for women. It probably isn't voiced as muh because it's so commonplace, though. Seriously, imagine yourself in that scenario and use a bit of empathy.

 

I don't see how that's relevant. Men would be a bit miffed because the writers know that they're using language in a non-standard way to make a point across.

 

I seriously think we should keep our external motives outside of RPG games. These games exist to be played, not to acknowledge anyone's pet peeves.

 

 

Ah yes, how is me putting the shoe on the other foot relevant when you make the argument that if something doesn't affect you it shouldn't matter?

 

CPS linked a lovely article about why this kind of thing actually matters to people. There's also the fact that language shapes how we think, and if you use the male pronoun only you end up having the reader only think of men when reading. Thus, people don't think about women playing the game.

 

You're taking a game about imagining yourself as something that takes no steps to help women imagine themselves as something (other than a sex object) and claiming it's open to women. This is like claiming a building is open to everyone but having no women's bathrooms and no handicap ramps.

 

Openness is not the same as accessibility. You can claim to be open to everyone, but if they have to put in extra work to get in, it's not really accessible to them.

 

This getting out of hand. Not using female pronouns is the equivalent of calling people racial slurs?

 

Also, language effects how people think? The language of FFG's books change how people think?

 

"Openness is not the same as accessibility. You can claim to be open to everyone, but if they have to put in extra work to get in, it's not really accessible to them."

 

I GM a game for a group that has multiple women in it and they have a blast. They own multiple books themselves and have not even a single issue with them.

 

They don't have an issue with it, who're you to say they're having the wrong kind of fun?

 

I'm sorry but this issue is getting very political. And politics isn't very fun at all. 40kRP is a game, a game that's meant to be fun.


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#150 Nimsim

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:02 PM

You said you didn't think language can be oppressive. I gave you a very extreme example.

 

And yes, the language of FFG's books affects how people think about FFG's game. If it only talks about men, people will assume that men are the sole focal point of the game.

 

I'm glad that your gamers have fun. I never said they're having the wrong kind of fun. I said that FFG's are going to be harder for women to get into than men. How much harder that is is going to differ from person to person. Maybe your group had an easier time with it. Women in my groups have had a harder time. Anecdotal evidence.

 

"I'm sorry but this issue is getting very political. And politics isn't very fun at all. 40kRP is a game, a game that's meant to be fun."

 

When you ask for reasons for someone's opinions and statements and they give them to you, it's considered poor form to declare that the argument is now "too political" because their reasons may extend beyond just the game itself. If you don't want to know, don't ask.



#151 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:06 PM

I didn't really want to say this, but, I think I'll be blunt here:

Nimsim, in your constant patronisation of women, I'm more and more convinced you are the only really sexist person in this thread.


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#152 ThenDoctor

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:07 PM

It's FFG's product and intellectual property.  No one is forcing anyone to buy it.  Either accept their artistic license in expressing their work the way they do or don't.  The kind of 'soft censorship' the OP is describing is corrosive to creativity IMHO.

I'm doing no such thing, you apparently don't know what censorship is, and I take a bit of offense at the implication.

 

I raised a point that I'd seen addressed in other games. I never stated that they needed to do one thing or the other. I simply said it might be something to consider.


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I've made an expanded Divinations table for Dark Heresy Second Edition.Find it here: 

 

http://community.fan...general-thread/


#153 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:08 PM

"And yes, the language of FFG's books affects how people think about FFG's game. If it only talks about men, people will assume that men are the sole focal point of the game."

 

I've never made this assumption. And the people I play with haven't made this assumption

 

"I said that FFG's are going to be harder for women to get into than men."

 

Evidently not since there are women out there that get into them just fine.


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#154 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:10 PM

I didn't really want to say this, but, I think I'll be blunt here:

Nimsim, in your constant patronisation of women, I'm more and more convinced you are the only really sexist person in this thread.

How do you determine if someone is being patronising through text? Maybe he's just concerned that some people have an issue with the product when they shouldn't.


"The endless dark of the universe is yours, if you but reach out to take it. Yield nothing—the void respects only strength." — Serren Travius, Rogue Trader

#155 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:11 PM

 

I didn't really want to say this, but, I think I'll be blunt here:

Nimsim, in your constant patronisation of women, I'm more and more convinced you are the only really sexist person in this thread.

How do you determine if someone is being patronising through text? Maybe he's just concerned that some people have an issue with the product when they shouldn't.

 

Ah, I see what you did there. I salute you :P



#156 ultrashake

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:31 PM

DeathByGrotz I think i responded to your post in a way I didn't mean to because I didn't have the full context. And for that i apologize.

 

This thread is a bit of a mess. I think the mods should just lock it at this point. Before it gets more uncivil that it already is.


Edited by ultrashake, 27 August 2014 - 05:32 PM.

"The endless dark of the universe is yours, if you but reach out to take it. Yield nothing—the void respects only strength." — Serren Travius, Rogue Trader

#157 Nimsim

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:32 PM

I didn't really want to say this, but, I think I'll be blunt here:

Nimsim, in your constant patronisation of women, I'm more and more convinced you are the only really sexist person in this thread.

 

That's some class A trolling, man. Really good stuff.



#158 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:34 PM

DeathByGrotz I think i responded to your post in a way I didn't mean to because I didn't have the full context. And for that i apologize.

 

This thread is a bit of a mess. I think the mods should just lock it at this point. Before it gets more uncivil that it already is.

That it is, yep.


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#159 Tim Huckelbery

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:49 PM

I have to agree at this point. Anyone wishing to continue this discussion, please take it to some other website. 


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