Jump to content



Photo

Is the Dark Side "seductive"?


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#21 evileeyore

evileeyore

    Member

  • Members
  • 893 posts

Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

To late! Already started thinking of Darth Talon! :)

BAH!

Ventress is my Dark Seductress of choice.

#22 Aluminium Falcon

Aluminium Falcon

    Member

  • Members
  • 188 posts

Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:36 PM

I also like to have seduction be replicated by the GM in the player's ear.

 

The tools are all there for seduction - the GM is free to "act the part of the dark side" by pointing them out to the Force Sensitive. "Sure coercing that guard might generate a point of Conflict, but the party needs this information and the guy just isn't playing ball - with lives hanging in the balance, surely coercing this scum is justified?"

 

And what about when you're in the middle of combat? "That dangerous, insane Wookiee is beating the hell into your companion, and you're too far away to help. You were smart to use Move, since you couldn't physically get there in time - and you still can use it, if you're willing to flip a Destiny Point to use those dark side pips. It could mean the difference between life and death for your companion - and what's a point of Conflict compared to that?"

 

The more the player does it, the more he relies on it. Because no-one likes to experience a resource (in this case, being free to act/use a power more leniently) and then have it taken away.

Well said.

 

What amuses me, right now, is that it is these sorts of compromises and rationalizations that we, ourselves, use as Star Wars fans in general (and RPG folk in specific) to justify character actions.


Edited by Aluminium Falcon, 23 August 2014 - 08:24 PM.

  • Shakespearian_Soldier, kaosoe and RedfordBlade like this

#23 Azanael

Azanael

    Member

  • Members
  • 120 posts

Posted 30 August 2014 - 05:35 PM

Sorry, question already answered ^^


Edited by Azanael, 30 August 2014 - 05:50 PM.


#24 borithan

borithan

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,278 posts

Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:22 AM

The WEG system gave you a mechanical bonus for having Dark Side points, making it easier to use force powers, so there was a temptation to acquire Dark Side points... however, if you acquired too many (between 2-7, depending on how lucky you were in rolling to avoid falling... even getting 3 gave you quite a noticeable chance of falling) you would fall to the dark side and become an NPC (who no longer got the benefit of Dark Side points, as the Dark Side had no need to temp them any further).

 

The WEG system was pretty punishing for handing out Dark Side points to force sensitive characters (basically any aggressive use of the force at any level... excepting the lightsaber power which just bypassed this entirely). While using the bonus granted by dark side points you had to be even more careful about how you used your powers otherwise you would get other dark side points... though you could choose not to use them... but then it made activating your powers harder than normal.

 

Just to give some sense of how "evil" someone was meant to be, Luke Skywalker is classed as having 2 Dark Side points at the end of the Return of the Jedi.

 

It was an interesting system... but many of the individual powers were poorly executed, and the power balance was totally out of whack. There was also no attempt to balance force users against non-force users. They started underpowered (as they couldn't really use any powers at all, and sacrificed general ability for the use of the force, but about the point they could reliably use their powers they could totally overpower almost any non-force using threat thrown at them (as long as they had a lightsaber).



#25 Robin Graves

Robin Graves

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,584 posts

Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:16 PM

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"

 

Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."



#26 Chortles

Chortles

    Member

  • Members
  • 825 posts

Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:49 AM

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"
 
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

In which case the appropriate question is "does the F&D implementation achieve that?"

On the other hand, why the hell are we listening to Yoda anyway, considering how badly he got things wrong in the prequels? His credibility is dead to me... like his Order.  :D


  • Col. Orange and Shakespearian_Soldier like this
 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#27 LexMajor

LexMajor

    Member

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:14 PM

Funnily enough, even at FR2 you will still have roughly 33% chances of failing to generate a Light Side pip, so even then you're still not out of the woods. It gets down to ~20% at FR3. That's still 1 chance out of 5 to have some power NOT work at all... the Dark side will stay seductive for a surprisingly long time...


Edited by LexMajor, 02 September 2014 - 03:32 PM.

Lex


#28 2P51

2P51

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,684 posts

Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:04 PM

 

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"
 
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

In which case the appropriate question is "does the F&D implementation achieve that?"
 

 

Yes, I think it did.  I think the set up of the Force die is a very elegant mathematical implementation on the back end of that exact phrase from Yoda.  You will tend to see DS results more quickly on fewer dice, but averaged over time and as you increase in skill, the number of LS and DS pips will equal out.


  • Lorne, GL309 and Robin Graves like this

My group's Obsidian Portal campaign site: It's All in the Trigger Squeeze  and D&D 5E  Swords for Adventure


#29 gribble

gribble

    Member

  • Members
  • 411 posts

Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:22 PM

Not to mention that there are more "double light side" symbols, so when you do roll a light side face there is a good chance it'll be "stronger". I agree the force die/mechanic is a very elegant implementation of Yoda's quote - probably one of my favourite parts of the FFG system.


  • Lorne and Robin Graves like this

Star Wars Edge of the Empire (Beta test) resources

Reference Sheets | Combat Reference Sheet | Critical Cards | Talent Tree Reference

 


#30 Shakespearian_Soldier

Shakespearian_Soldier

    Member

  • Members
  • 957 posts

Posted 03 September 2014 - 05:17 AM

On the other hand, why the hell are we listening to Yoda anyway, considering how badly he got things wrong in the prequels? His credibility is dead to me... like his Order.  :D

 

 

Oooohhhh.... burn! XD


"Beg for your life. No, doing so won't save you - but it will make your death more amusing to watch."
- Vago the Hutt; Star Wars: Edge of the Empire


#31 Inquisitor Tremayne

Inquisitor Tremayne

    Member

  • Members
  • 192 posts

Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:20 AM

 

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"
 
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

In which case the appropriate question is "does the F&D implementation achieve that?"

On the other hand, why the hell are we listening to Yoda anyway, considering how badly he got things wrong in the prequels? His credibility is dead to me... like his Order.  :D

 

In the last season of The Clone Wars Yoda changed his thoughts dramatically.  So his actions in Revenge of the Sith make more sense in that light.  I highly recommend the last 3 or 4 episodes of Season 6.



#32 Chortles

Chortles

    Member

  • Members
  • 825 posts

Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:51 AM

Does it count as canon if it only ended up on Nextflix as an "unaired season"? (Not a moot point since the prior seasons are part of the Disney-Lucasfilm Story Group canon alongside the trilogies.) Although I'd note that it sounds like Yoda changing his thinking in TCW S6 only to then turn around seemingly again over twenty years later to tell Luke "quicker, easier, more seductive"...


 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#33 Doc, the Weasel

Doc, the Weasel

    Pretending to be many, many things.

  • Members
  • 1,659 posts

Posted 03 September 2014 - 02:52 PM

Does it count as canon if it only ended up on Nextflix as an "unaired season"? (Not a moot point since the prior seasons are part of the Disney-Lucasfilm Story Group canon alongside the trilogies.) 

 

Yes. 


Listen to my actual play podcasts at BeggingForXP.com.

 

Take a look at my Talent Trees (Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion), YT-2400 deck plans for the Lazy Bantha, as well as my other handouts.


#34 Donovan Morningfire

Donovan Morningfire

    Looking for a saint? Look elsewhere.

  • Members
  • 4,516 posts

Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:01 PM

Yeah, I don't think they specified that it was only the "properly aired" seasons of The Clone Wars that counted as being part of the new canon, and instead simply included the entire series alongside the films and any new material being released after that particular date.


Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog - http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/

"You worry about those drink vouchers, I'll worry about that bar tab!"


#35 Inquisitor Tremayne

Inquisitor Tremayne

    Member

  • Members
  • 192 posts

Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

Does it count as canon if it only ended up on Nextflix as an "unaired season"? (Not a moot point since the prior seasons are part of the Disney-Lucasfilm Story Group canon alongside the trilogies.) Although I'd note that it sounds like Yoda changing his thinking in TCW S6 only to then turn around seemingly again over twenty years later to tell Luke "quicker, easier, more seductive"...

TCW S6 Spoilers ahead:

 

 

 

 

 

 

So wait, I am confused.  Is the argument that Yoda was wrong about the Dark Side or just wrong in general?  Because after TCW S6, The Order has taken the stance that they have little choice but to see how it all plays out and THEN act.  While Yoda, through his journey to discover the ability to become a Force spirit, decides to take the long view of things: knowing that things will not end well but that there will be hope in the far future to destroy the Sith.  So, the Order was crap Ep I & II, and by Ep III the order as a whole have decided to wait out the Clone Wars until the Sith have finally player their hand.  While Yoda, knows its going to go poorly, but he knows there is hope in the far future and I think he finds peace in that.

 

Anyway, thats my 2 credits worth.  Season 6 is really pretty fantastic, including the Jar Jar episodes.  But I've never really had a strong hatred of him anyway, so meh.



#36 Donovan Morningfire

Donovan Morningfire

    Looking for a saint? Look elsewhere.

  • Members
  • 4,516 posts

Posted 04 September 2014 - 11:56 AM

I think in Yoda's case it was realizing that, in many respects, the Jedi Order had already lost the war, simply by participating in it in the first place, and that the Order's views on the Force had become too structured.  To pull from the (excellent) RotS novelization, during his fight with Sidious, Yoda realized that as powerful and skilled in the Force as he was, he simply could not defeat the Sith, as the Sith had evolved since the last major confrontation nearly a 1000 years ago, while the Jedi had stagnated, and that as the Grand Master he was partly responsible for that stagnation.

 

I suspect the Season 6 Clone Wars arc which has him decide to play the long game plays a role in that, but at the same time he knows he can't just sit back and do nothing; its one thing to play the long game, but another to just simply step aside and let evil men have their way.  Up until the actual fight with Sidious, for all Yoda knew he could very well have a chance to defeat the Sith Lord and stop the darkness of his rule from ever coming to pass.

 

It probably also plays a role in his lessons to Luke, on top of having 20 years to mull over where the Jedi went wrong in training Anakin, something that Yoda would likely feel very guilty over, since had Anakin been properly trained then the Chosen One could have averted this whole mess by defeating the Sith instead of joining them.  Yoda also was doing a rush-job in training Luke, and so didn't quite have the time (or patience) to go into exacting details with a student that was being rather thick by his estimation, though given he was challenging so many of Luke's preconceived notions it's not exactly surprising that Luke wasn't exactly taking to the philosophical aspects of being a Jedi as well as he was to other parts of the training.


  • LexMajor likes this

Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog - http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/

"You worry about those drink vouchers, I'll worry about that bar tab!"





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS