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Is the Dark Side "seductive"?


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#1 Col. Orange

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:17 AM

Not like that, y'perv.

 

From what I'm reading here* (though I am only half paying attention) as your Morality plummets your Strain Threshold drops a bit and you start using black dots to fuel your powers...

So is there anything there to represent Anakin being "seduced by the dark side of the Force"?

Vader keeps telling Luke he doesn't know nuthin' about the Force until he understands the Dark Side, but Pa Skywalker isn't one to toss around Dark Side powers, so I'm curious what the game is doing to incentivise its use.  And if those incentives hold true to the films.

 

 

* in the forum - I don't have the book.


Edited by Col. Orange, 22 August 2014 - 06:44 AM.

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#2 2P51

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:29 AM

Using Dark Side points is a nearly 20% boost in Force power effectiveness.  That's pretty seductive.  


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#3 Ghostofman

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:31 AM

Not like that, y'perv.

 

Darth Talon would like to respectfully disagree.

EGFTrev3.jpg

 

 


From what I'm reading here* (though I am only half paying attention) as your Morality plummets your Strain Threshold drops a bit and you start using black dots to fuel your powers...

So is there anything there to represent Anakin being "seduced by the dark side of the Force"?

Vader keeps telling Luke he doesn't know nuthin' about the Force until he understand the Dark Side, but Pa Skywalker isn't one to toss around Dark Side powers, so I'm curious what the game is doing to incentivise its use.  And if those incentives hold true to the films.

 

 

It depends on your Certain Point of View. (Sidenote: The more I understand Obi-wan, the more I realize he's a total a-hole).

The thing about the Darkside in mechanics, is it's exactly what Yoda and EU Sith teachings say. Not more powerful, just faster and easier, and without the typical limitations.

 

So while the Darkside doesn't show up in a leather tube top (usually) what it can do is literally tempt and seduce the player more directly. The chances of rolling a dark pip is higher then a white, so on many rolls, especially at FR 1, the player is going to be staring at a black dot and thinking that if he used that he could totally do something awesome. Or they could look at an enemy and think "Man I could just toss him out that window and this encounter would be over right now!" And when you've darksided out... now you're done, yeah, you can't use light pips without the penalty, and you take a hit in the strain, but on the other hand... you don't have to care a bit about those conflict points the GM is handing you...


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#4 Serif Marak

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:32 AM

Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

Dark Side powers are more likely to deal damage, and dealing damage with Force powers generates conflict points.  Which isn't as big a deal for a bad guy.

And you can't just hack and slash your way to victory if you're a good guy.

But it's not so bad if you're bad.  :P


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#5 mouthymerc

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:33 AM

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Come to the Dark Side!


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#6 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:47 AM

Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

 

 

That's actually not true. There are the same number of pips for both sides on the die. There are more sides that have dark side pips, though.

 

It's really seductive when you are starting out. The statistics are much more in favor of the dark side when you are scraping for anything to fuel your powers. If you start at 50 Morality, a few conflict points don't mean that much, especially when it means the difference between success and failure.

 

As you progress, though, the greater number of dice allow you to leverage those light pip sides, and the odds move toward a balance between light and dark as far as probability is concerned.

 

End result is that the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive up front, but it it doesn't claim you early you find it is not as powerful. Elegant system, if you ask me.


Edited by Doc, the Weasel, 21 August 2014 - 09:48 AM.

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#7 2P51

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:47 AM

Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

Dark Side powers are more likely to deal damage, and dealing damage with Force powers generates conflict points.  Which isn't as big a deal for a bad guy.

And you can't just hack and slash your way to victory if you're a good guy.

But it's not so bad if you're bad.   :P

Black pips are more likely to come up as they are on 7 faces of a D12, but there are 8 pips of each on the die. So ultimately over time you would generate equal numbers of pips, it's just that on any given roll you are more likely to see DS pips.


Edited by 2P51, 21 August 2014 - 09:48 AM.

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#8 2P51

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:51 AM

 

Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

 

 

That's actually not true. There are the same number of pips for both sides on the die. There are more sides that have dark side pips, though.

 

It's really seductive when you are starting out. The statistics are much more in favor of the dark side when you are scraping for anything to fuel your powers. If you start at 50 Morality, a few conflict points don't mean that much, especially when it means the difference between success and failure.

 

As you progress, though, the greater number of dice allow you to leverage those light pip sides, and the odds move toward a balance between light and dark as far as probability is concerned.

 

End result is that the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive up front, but it it doesn't claim you early you find it is not as powerful. Elegant system, if you ask me.

 

Probability actually doesn't shift, it is constant, on any given roll you will always have a 58.333% chance to have a DS face come up.  It's the 41.667% LS faces that will generate more LS pips per roll.  So taking the long view and total pips generated it will even out, but more often than not DS pips will come up, just in fewer numbers.


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#9 Col. Orange

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:57 AM

Solid points (Ghost of Man and 2Pirate51 win this thread).  It's sounding like the low Morality is more useful to Sith Sorcerer types than to men (and wimin) who just want to cut your head off.

 

 

If Twi'Leks come from a hot planet, surely they'd need to wrap up warm when they go abroad?


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#10 yeti1069

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 10:29 AM

Add to the Force dice issue the fact that dark side power usage affords you more control, allows you to bend others to your will. For example, look at Battle Meditation: with the dark side version, you get to give orders that many would be unable to resist. That's a powerful form of control. On top of that, there's the freedom the dark side brings of not having to censure yourself, and being able to indulge in whatever actions you wish. You can give in to all of your pettiness, vengefulness, lust, greed, etc... 


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#11 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 10:58 AM

come_to_the_dark_side_6951.jpg

Come to the Dark Side!

They have boobies! :P

 

Okay, now that I've gotten that out of the way, onto the more serious stuff...

 

The Dark Side is "seductive" not only in terms of being able to use those dark side pips to generate Force Points, thus making it more likely for you to activate your Force powers, but the Conflict chart lists a number of actions that are Standard Operating Procedure for many gaming groups that now generate Conflict points, with the really high Conflict-generating actions being things like torture and murdering a helpless person, but even wanton destruction of property or killing generates a lot of Conflict.  Heck, just leaping into a fight without trying to resolve it diplomatically generates a point of Conflict.

 

This is way I think the name Morality works for this mechanic, because it's influenced not only by how you use the Force, but also by what actions you take.  I've long said that if you want a good idea of how a proper Jedi should act, then use Obi-Wan as your example.  Granted, he's not a saint, but his actions are of the type that are going to generate little to no Conflict during an encounter.  On the opposite side, you've got Anakin who seems more focused on finding the fastest solution to a problem, even if it requires resorting to violence rather than diplomacy, particularly if Obi-Wan's not around to reign him in.


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#12 Revanchist7

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:56 PM

The dark side is also the side that lets you do whatever you want morally without rules (other than that one about two)


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#13 Atraangelis

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 02:47 PM

LOOOOOOOOOL



#14 evileeyore

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:04 AM

So is there anything there to represent Anakin being "seduced by the dark side of the Force"?

No.



By the RAW that was all Palpatine scoring massively on his Charm and Deceit checks... and Vader being a deluded fool.
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#15 mouthymerc

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:25 AM

Actual seduction is left to role-playing as it should be.

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#16 Inquisitor Tremayne

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:57 AM

I think it is a combination of things, primarily you have players that start with FR: 1 and want UNLIMITED POWERZZ!!  So the temptation is built into the die mechanic it.  You then have RP options that come up during the game.  And to truly walk the path of a Jedi is difficult.  My FSE has had a hell of a time staying light in our Edge game.  Considering things like looking the other way when the group does bad things, to not wanting to fail certain checks!  It makes falling a slippery slope.

 

I agree with Doc, I think it is quite elegant the way it is handled.


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#17 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 03:46 AM

I also like to have seduction be replicated by the GM in the player's ear.

 

The tools are all there for seduction - the GM is free to "act the part of the dark side" by pointing them out to the Force Sensitive. "Sure coercing that guard might generate a point of Conflict, but the party needs this information and the guy just isn't playing ball - with lives hanging in the balance, surely coercing this scum is justified?"

 

And what about when you're in the middle of combat? "That dangerous, insane Wookiee is beating the hell into your companion, and you're too far away to help. You were smart to use Move, since you couldn't physically get there in time - and you still can use it, if you're willing to flip a Destiny Point to use those dark side pips. It could mean the difference between life and death for your companion - and what's a point of Conflict compared to that?"

 

The more the player does it, the more he relies on it. Because no-one likes to experience a resource (in this case, being free to act/use a power more leniently) and then have it taken away.


Edited by Shakespearian_Soldier, 23 August 2014 - 03:46 AM.

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#18 Dex Vulen

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:05 AM

YES!

 

Prior to F&Db, Gand never used a DS pip to activate any of the powers that he had.  He was neutered (by my choice).  Now that we have more fleshed out rules for what can happen if one does use them, Gand had a lot of fun our last session testing out Morality.  He was much more effective and I as the player had a lot more fun.  He even gained Morality at the end of the session.

 

In one session I have found that the DS is seductive and also will lead to some interesting RP potential down the line.  Will Gand see the error of his ways (as he slides down the Morality scale), or will he not care as he uses those pips to save the people that he feels responsible for?


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#19 Robin Graves

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:08 AM

Not like that, y'perv.

 

 

To late! Already started thinking of Darth Talon! :)


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#20 kaosoe

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:06 AM

 

Not like that, y'perv.

 

 

To late! Already started thinking of Darth Talon! :)

 

It's difficult not to.

 

 

I also like to have seduction be replicated by the GM in the player's ear.

 

The tools are all there for seduction - the GM is free to "act the part of the dark side" by pointing them out to the Force Sensitive. "Sure coercing that guard might generate a point of Conflict, but the party needs this information and the guy just isn't playing ball - with lives hanging in the balance, surely coercing this scum is justified?"

 

And what about when you're in the middle of combat? "That dangerous, insane Wookiee is beating the hell into your companion, and you're too far away to help. You were smart to use Move, since you couldn't physically get there in time - and you still can use it, if you're willing to flip a Destiny Point to use those dark side pips. It could mean the difference between life and death for your companion - and what's a point of Conflict compared to that?"

 

The more the player does it, the more he relies on it. Because no-one likes to experience a resource (in this case, being free to act/use a power more leniently) and then have it taken away.

I wish I could like this more. Mostly quoted for emphasis. If a GM isn't doing this to their Paragons, they should.


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