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Suggested revision to Parry and Reflect values are calculated.


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#221 Rakaydos

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:48 PM

 

Improved reflect is not reliant on any other talents. It is however significantly easier to get it to go off with things like sense, dodge, sidestep. As those all help it go off more reliably. 

Oh no? It's impossible to activate Improved Reflect against attacks at short range without some outside help, and incredibly unlikely at medium range.

 

Ask yourself this question: would you pick up Improved Reflect on a character that doesn't have Sense, Dodge, Sidestep or an ally with Bodyguard? If they never pick up those other abilities?

 

Remind me, how is it that a jedi can even put a saber in front of a blaster bolt to deflect it, let alone reflect it at a specific target? Lorewise, I mean?

 

Persoanlly, I feel that Shen needs to lose ranks in parry and gain ranks of sidestep, but other than that its fine.



#222 TedMaul

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:55 PM

One notion to help with the generating of the necessary Threat to trigger Improved Parry/Reflect might be to instead tweak the Defensive Training talent, so that instead of just providing a rank of Defensive, it instead provides a rank of Defensive and Deflection, but requires a Melee or Lightsaber weapon

 

Since the Deflection quality simply improves the character's ranged defense by one when using a weapon, it'd help with being able to use those two talents, particularly for Shien Expert while not requiring a massive rework of the tree, other than replacing the Column 4/Row 4 instance of Reflect with another Defensive Training so that the character can up their melee and ranged defense by 2 without having to go digging into other specializations.

 

And it is kinda cinematic to see a person using a non-lightsaber weapon to "deflect" incoming ranged attacks, be it thrown weapons, slugthrowers, or even blaster fire.  And much as I dislike the concept, the TCW series did have Mandalorian guards using their staves (force pikes?) to actually deflect blaster fire, and since said series is canon, there's precedent for enabling non-Force users to use their weapons for some degree of benefit vs. ranged attacks.

 

If Defensive Training gives Defensive +1 and  Deflective +1, it would be too powerful. I think there should be two separete talents for each item quality. But I think theses talents should add to an item's preexisting Defensive or Deflection, not replace them. If not, these talents would be quite underpowered compared to Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes, for example.



#223 Daeglan

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Posted Yesterday, 02:00 AM

 

Improved reflect is not reliant on any other talents. It is however significantly easier to get it to go off with things like sense, dodge, sidestep. As those all help it go off more reliably. 

Oh no? It's impossible to activate Improved Reflect against attacks at short range without some outside help, and incredibly unlikely at medium range.

 

Ask yourself this question: would you pick up Improved Reflect on a character that doesn't have Sense, Dodge, Sidestep or an ally with Bodyguard? If they never pick up those other abilities?

 

Medium range. 2 purple. Wearing armor 1 defense. That is the potential for 5 threat. or 1 failure 4 threat and so on. Is it likely? no. If I want t be good at it would I spend other talents to improve my odds? yes i would. But does it require other stuff to make it work? no. jut to make it more reliable. 



#224 yeti1069

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Posted Yesterday, 07:23 AM

 

 

Improved reflect is not reliant on any other talents. It is however significantly easier to get it to go off with things like sense, dodge, sidestep. As those all help it go off more reliably. 

Oh no? It's impossible to activate Improved Reflect against attacks at short range without some outside help, and incredibly unlikely at medium range.

 

Ask yourself this question: would you pick up Improved Reflect on a character that doesn't have Sense, Dodge, Sidestep or an ally with Bodyguard? If they never pick up those other abilities?

 

Medium range. 2 purple. Wearing armor 1 defense. That is the potential for 5 threat. or 1 failure 4 threat and so on. Is it likely? no. If I want t be good at it would I spend other talents to improve my odds? yes i would. But does it require other stuff to make it work? no. jut to make it more reliable. 

 

That's a slim possibility of 5 threat on its own before you even consider advantages canceling out some of those, and since your attacker is likely to be rolling better/more dice than 2 purple and a black, that likelihood plummets.

 

You also didn't answer my question: would you pick up Improved Reflect if you had no plans to pick up Sense, or go into a tree with Dodge or Sidestep?



#225 Thebearisdriving

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Posted Yesterday, 07:59 AM

To reiterate:  Why would you think a character with 15 xp invested in a single talent SHOULD be able to reflect bolts at short range? 

 

Truly, if you look at the jedi that reflect back blaster bolts in the clone wars and films, it's quite minimal.  They are all experienced characters, with lot's of other abilities and defenses.  Least skilled redirection I can think of is obi-wan in TPM, and he is basically ready to be a "knight" so he probably has a defensive ability or two.

 

This is the kind of question where in saga someone might ask "why should I need a high UtF skill to defelct blaster bolts?  Why can't I just do it?" or in the OCR "why do I need a large base attack to deflect blaster bolts, why can't I just do it?"  In every system there are going to be things that elevate the power of an ability to be more effective, and since FaD doesn't have traditional leveling structures, this is it.

 

In the end, the talent works minimally on it's own (see my above posts).  With a tiny investment in abilities that are also useful, the talent becomes a force multiplier. That force multiplier increases geometrically as you increase your defenses, and so increasing the viability of the talent at early stages creates an overpowered talent at later stages.

 

I like the suggestion of just adding sidestep to the shien tree.  Say in place of that grit talent that's right next to improved reflect.  That would solve a lot of this in one easy swap.


Edited by Thebearisdriving, Yesterday, 08:00 AM.

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#226 Thebearisdriving

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Posted Yesterday, 08:11 AM

@Dono:

 

Did you see in my post how I used the example of a Shien/Hunter?  I believe that is FaD material.  so that's not comparing it to prior material, but using the beta stand alone.

 

I have shown mathematically how the talent is viable situationally with no extra investment (post #196). 

 

I have shown examples of talents that support the idea of parallel investment (post 200). 

 

I have provided examples of specs within EotE and FaaD that show how these talents that require parallel investment can be dead talents for characters not interested in pursuing them, because they are gateway talents for more potent or signature abilities (post 206).

 

I have shown viable archtypes for creating characters that focus on improved reflect and how they can at early levels of play create a satisfying experience of redirection, with plenty of room for growth. (post 214).

 

I have presented this talent from many, many angles.  both in a so called "vacuum" and out side of it.  The talent is well balanced with any number of abilities in the game, and aside from benefiting greatly from a piece of player agency (destiny point to activate it), it's on par with most other talent powerlevels, given it's impact to the game and it's offensive capability (dealing damage with no action or additional cost requirement is very powerful in this system).



#227 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted Yesterday, 01:57 PM

Don't forget that you can find synergy with Force Powers as well as other talents in a spec. 

 

Improved Parry/Reflect works great with Sense. Thematically the two work well together. It is also available to anyone who can purchase Improved Parry, so it is a combo that is effectively "in the same tree." 


Edited by Doc, the Weasel, Yesterday, 01:57 PM.

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#228 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted Yesterday, 03:07 PM

Don't forget that you can find synergy with Force Powers as well as other talents in a spec. 

 

Improved Parry/Reflect works great with Sense. Thematically the two work well together. It is also available to anyone who can purchase Improved Parry, so it is a combo that is effectively "in the same tree." 

While the synergy is there (and I never said that it wasn't), yeti1069 brings up some very good points that unless a character has a bunch of supplemental abilities that are not found in Shien Expert, then Improved Reflect has very little value in comparison to its sibling talent Improved Parry.

 

These talents need to be considered both in terms of working with other talents and standing on their own merits within its native specialization, which it seems many people are focusing entirely on the first part and willfully ignoring the second part.  A character with just Shien Expert, according to several posters, is better off just skipping Improved Reflect entirely until they've sunk further resoruces in other talents like Dodge or Side Step given the infrequency of generating 3 Threat on 2 difficulty dice (Medium Range) and impossibility of doing so on just 1 difficulty die (Short Range).  That or hope they have a PC ally that's willing to burn Strain every round and stay attached to the hip to use Bodyguard for the chance of generating the 3 Threat or Despair.

 

Daeglan,

It's rather foolish to automatically assume that every Shien Expert PC is going to be wearing armor that provides a defense bonus simply because of the mechanical benefit of doing so.  There are players that prefer to go with the role-play angle instead of "what provides the best benefits?" in terms of gear, who may chose to stick with Concealing Robes because they're similar to what the Jedi are known for wearing (as well as offering a decent perk to help keep a low profile).  And from what I've seen, a single setback die tends to provide little benefit in this regard, since it tends to either come up blank or generate a failure.

 

So yeti1069's instances of the likelihood of getting the necessary 3 Threat against a ranged attack at Medium range stands up, since it's quite likely that prior to hitting the "Knight-level" benchmark of 150 XP, a PC won't be wearing armored clothing or armored robes (most PCs that I've seen for FaD tend to very towards the options that provide more starting XP than additional credits).

 

Thebearisdriving,

Have you tried using any these "experiments" of yours using just Shien Expert.  No other specs, no other Force powers, nothing but Shien Expert.  If so, how does Improved Reflect stand on its own with no other specs or abilities to jack it up?  Guessing you probably didn't see that many Threat on just two difficulty dice.  Which means that Improved Reflect by itself in Shien Expert doesn't hold up.  Your own post said that a change needed to be made, which backs up what I've been saying all along.

 

Replacing one or more talents with a rank of Side Step would certainly help, either the Grit talent or Saber Throw, which itself could be shifted over to the Djem So side of the spec to replace Defensive Stance, since Shien Expert doesn't have Improved Parry and thus less of a need to upgrade their defense vs. melee attacks.


Edited by Donovan Morningfire, Yesterday, 03:16 PM.

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#229 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted Yesterday, 03:22 PM

 

Don't forget that you can find synergy with Force Powers as well as other talents in a spec. 

 

Improved Parry/Reflect works great with Sense. Thematically the two work well together. It is also available to anyone who can purchase Improved Parry, so it is a combo that is effectively "in the same tree." 

While the synergy is there (and I never said that it wasn't), yeti1069 brings up some very good points that unless a character has a bunch of supplemental abilities that are not found in Shien Expert, then Improved Reflect has very little value in comparison to its sibling talent Improved Parry.

 

These talents need to be considered both in terms of working with other talents and standing on their own merits within its native specialization, which it seems many people are focusing entirely on the first part and willfully ignoring the second part.  A character with just Shien Expert, according to several posters, is better off just skipping Improved Reflect entirely until they've sunk further resoruces in other talents like Dodge or Side Step given the infrequency of generating 3 Threat on 2 difficulty dice (Medium Range) and impossibility of doing so on just 1 difficulty die (Short Range).  That or hope they have a PC ally that's willing to burn Strain every round and stay attached to the hip to use Bodyguard for the chance of generating the 3 Threat or Despair.

 

 

 

My point is that it is splitting hairs over whether the Sense defensive upgrade is "within" the Shien Expert tree or not, since everyone who has access to Improved Reflect also has access to Sense. 

 

It's easy to forget that in addition to all the talents in a tree, interaction with Force Powers should be considered as well.

 

That said, I'm not saying that the talent is perfect as it stands (or that it shouldn't work on its own), just that the argument that it requires something that is not directly accessible for Shien Experts (or anyone else) doesn't stand. 


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#230 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted Yesterday, 04:01 PM

Doc,

I never said anything about those talents or powers being "inaccessible."  In this system there's pretty much no such thing as "inaccessible" as it all boils down to "how much XP are you willing to pay to get it?" whether it be buying additional specializations to access certain talents, including multiple instances of a specific talent, such as Toughened, Durable, Side Step, Dodge, Hard-Headed, Parry, or Reflect.

 

The fact that under the current set-up, the Shien Expert pretty much has to take abilities that are not an inherent part of the Shien Expert talent tree is part of the issue, unless the player has an overly generous GM that only has bad guys make ranged attacks from Long or Extreme Range most of the time.  None of the other LS Form specs are required to take such abilities, be they talents or Force powers, that are outside their specialization in order to improve their chances of having Improved Parry work, as their set-up includes such things already as I detailed earlier in the thread.

 

But let's take a look at some of the other specializations, ones that having nothing to do with lightsabers.  All of the following examples were randomly chosen simply by flipping open the book and looking at whatever specialization I landed upon.

 

An Aggressor doesn't have to dip into other specializations or Force powers in order to be a terrifying presence in combat; the spec offers multiple ranks of Fearsome and Intimidating as well as offering Coercion as a bonus career skill.

 

An Advisor doesn't have to dip into other specializations to be good at dealing with people, as Charm, Deception, and Negotiation are all career skills, and it offers ranks in Smooth Talker, Plausible Deniability, Kill with Kindness, and Nobody's Fool to enable them to be masters of social encounters, and can do so without ever so much as looking at Influence or even Sense for the emotion/thought reading.

 

A Peacekeeper doesn't have to dip into other specializations to be good at leadership (has it as a skill and has talents that bolster Leadership checks), and can use Field Commander just fine without having to buy anything that's not already included in the specialization, and Battle Meditation certainly isn't a requirement to do their thing, and may in fact be deemed a waste of XP that could be better spent elsewhere.

 

A Healer doesn't have to dip into other specs to be good at healing people, with plenty of ranks of Physician and Surgeon and having Medicine as a bonus career skilll; having the Heal/Harm power certainly helps, but they can get by just fine without it.  Dipping into Protector or even AoR's Medic certainly helps their healing prowess (particuarly for the Stimpack Specialization talents), but neither of them are required to allow the Healer to do their thing, namely healing people.

 

Niman Disciple comes close in that it requires the Move power for two of it's major talents (Draw Closer and Force Assault), but the odds of a PC with this spec not taking Move at all are pretty darn slim.  And if they don't want the talents, they can be very easily side-stepped.  And even without those talents, as written it's still a pretty effective combat spec that even offers an increase to Force Rating while boosting up your ranks in Parry and Reflect (3 ranks of each), making it a very likely secondary spec for most 'saber-monkey characters in addition to adding ranks of Defensive Training (handy if you've got Improved Parry) as well as Center of Being and Improved Center of Being.  Nothing to help against ranged attacks, but since there's no Improved Reflect outside of Shien Expert, not a big deal, and it does fit with the film canon that Niman's not really that great in prolonged combat against multiple foes (if one accepts the notion put forth that the majority of Jedi that died at Geonosis were Niman practitioners).


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#231 yeti1069

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Posted Yesterday, 04:37 PM

To reiterate:  Why would you think a character with 15 xp invested in a single talent SHOULD be able to reflect bolts at short range?

What 15 XP? You could spend 300 XP and buy the entire Shien tree, and still be awful at using Improved Reflect.

 

You also still have not answered the question I posed: Would you take Improved Parry on a character that will not be picking up Sense, or moving into a Specialization that offers Dodge or Sidestep?

 

Don't forget that you can find synergy with Force Powers as well as other talents in a spec. 

 

Improved Parry/Reflect works great with Sense. Thematically the two work well together. It is also available to anyone who can purchase Improved Parry, so it is a combo that is effectively "in the same tree." 

Sure. That works well, but a character may not want Sense: perhaps they want their character to be poor at that, or they want to use other talents/powers that utilize Force dice, and don't want to be committing a die to Sense all the time (Enhance, Hawk Bat Swoop, Saber Swarm, the Niman talents, Seek, Misdirection, Battle Meditation, Protect, Bind...all have reasons to not want to lower your Force rating with committed dice to Sense).

 

Do any of the other specializations require picking up a Force power or going to another specialization? Niman does, but it spells it out--you need Move.


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#232 Rakaydos

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Posted Yesterday, 05:06 PM

Just checking, is anyone arguing that Shien Expert as a tree is already perfect?

 

Because I think I seen a disconnect here. One side apparently wants Improved Reflect to be easier to activate, because the Shien Tree sucks. The other side says Improved Reflet is fine, because there's other things than the Shien tree.

 

So... fix the Shien tree. Turn Row 2 Column 4 parry into a sidestep, and do the same with Row 3 Column 3 Grit. Now in order to take Improved Refect at all, you HAVE to take the ability to upgrde the attacker's roll. Now Improved Reflect is usable within Shien Expert, and still can be improved by going outside, without handing out free, autohit damage for effectively an forced enemy maneuver (2 threat)


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#233 yeti1069

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Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM

Just checking, is anyone arguing that Shien Expert as a tree is already perfect?

 

Because I think I seen a disconnect here. One side apparently wants Improved Reflect to be easier to activate, because the Shien Tree sucks. The other side says Improved Reflet is fine, because there's other things than the Shien tree.

 

So... fix the Shien tree. Turn Row 2 Column 4 parry into a sidestep, and do the same with Row 3 Column 3 Grit. Now in order to take Improved Refect at all, you HAVE to take the ability to upgrde the attacker's roll. Now Improved Reflect is usable within Shien Expert, and still can be improved by going outside, without handing out free, autohit damage for effectively an forced enemy maneuver (2 threat)

I think that's a totally reasonable solution, although, I think you mean Reflect, not Parry.

 

I guess Saber Throw is in here because Anakin/Vader was a Shien expert and threw his lightsaber once, right? I'd be more inclined to have Saber Throw replaced with Sidestep instead of the 10 point Reflect.



#234 bradknowles

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Posted Yesterday, 10:07 PM

Remind me, how is it that a jedi can even put a saber in front of a blaster bolt to deflect it, let alone reflect it at a specific target? Lorewise, I mean?


In the real world, when people dodge arrows or bullets, what they’re really dodging is the aim of the person who is firing the projectile.

They’re not so much dodging the projectile itself, which is likely to be flying at speeds too quick for a human to see, but with these skills they can pay careful attention to the person aiming at them and wait for that split second when they sense the "tell" that the person is firing.


I submit that all similar activities done in the SWRPG most likely works in largely the same way — you’re dodging/parrying/reflecting/side-stepping the aim of the weapon being fired and timing it so that you do so at precisely the moment when it is being fired.

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#235 evileeyore

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Posted Yesterday, 10:18 PM

Remind me, how is it that a jedi can even put a saber in front of a blaster bolt to deflect it, let alone reflect it at a specific target? Lorewise, I mean?

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