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Looking to buy Manor of Ravens


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#1 Leeko

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 06:10 PM

But I would like to know how good are the 2 new overlord class decks, mainly the enchanter one. I read enough on the other one, and how are the new monster relics. What do they do, does it make a big difference?



#2 Krawallburste

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 03:32 AM

Yesterday i played Manor of Ravens as a Mini Campaign and used an Unkindness contaminated combo - since my Marshall tried to denie me lots of cards (JESUS I REALLY HATE THAT CLASS) 

 

Unkindniss - which lets you summon a Raven flock - looked pretty cool to me. You get the ability to spawn a Raven nearly everywhere on the board, enhancing your monstergroups by 1 when it is needed. 4 life, b/r attack, crit +1, seems ok, but you get this 1 attack which makes or breaks your turnstructure (probably) when it is needed. the rest of the deck focuses on enhancing the raven, giving him extra life, mean debuffs, or letting him attack entire hero groups.

 

Enchanter - havent played this yet but it seems a rather powerfull class. im talking about fixed crit and defense boni, which is always nice. plus more stronger cards in the later skill tree.

 

overall i found manor of ravens hard on the heroes and rather beneficial to the overlord (which in my opinion is strongly needed in rumor quests). the relics arer good, the ol-rewards are better. 

the whole addon is quite atmospherical and i REALLY enjoyed playing it.

Monsters are way above cool, the items the heroes get are REALLY good + the 2 new classes look nice. though the 

marshal is a pain in the ass and im gonna hit every player in the face whos gonna draw an alys raine-by the book-zealous fire combo on me.

it hurts more then leoric as runemaster, nanok as anything or mok. it just hurts and kills kindof the fun. although you dont have to play the marshal in this combo. and this peticular combo only works with one peticular hero... . *sigh*

 

bounty hunter seems really cool and i feel like it does the job the initial wildlander was intended to do. he can attack on +3 range has a nice way to buff his damage and cool roam/investigate skills. his entire skillset works rather well together. like!

 

in the end i think this is the best mini addon ffg has brought up. i find it more balanced than LotW, and more atmospherical then TTF. The cards do a better job and they let go of this stupid secret passages. only thing i miss would be another green die - but meh =D

 

hope i could help!



#3 BentoSan

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:42 AM

Personally i think skills that make the overlord discard cards are a totally un-fun mechanic that should have never been introduced to the game. If the overlord holding onto cards was/is a problem then some sort of mechanic that limited the amount of cards an overlord could have in his hand would have been better in my opinion.


Edited by BentoSan, 23 August 2014 - 11:42 AM.


#4 Zaltyre

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:51 PM

Except that hoarding OL cards is a viable (and rewarding) strategy for the OL. Therefore, it makes sense for the heroes to have a way to counter said strategy.



#5 Whitewing

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:42 AM

Except that hoarding OL cards is a viable (and rewarding) strategy for the OL. Therefore, it makes sense for the heroes to have a way to counter said strategy.

 

Indeed: if the hero players decide to expend ability and class selections on gaining the ability to limit OL card usage, then they have given up alternate options as an opportunity cost, and you can simply decide not to pursue a strategy of stockpiling cards and simply use them.

 

The question becomes whether the loss of that strategy outweighs the loss the heroes suffered to gain the ability to counter that strategy.

 

Besides, the core game had a class with the ability to deal with that too, it was called Danger Sense.


Edited by Whitewing, 24 August 2014 - 12:42 AM.


#6 BentoSan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:23 AM

Its not just a viable strategy, in many quests its the best strategy. Personally i think some more hand management style mechanics would have been better than the current system.

 

I would not personally call an ability that makes the overlord discard a card fun for the hero, nor is it fun for the overlord to have to discard the card.

 

My issue here is not if it works or not technically its just the enjoyment that is derived from those mechanics.



#7 Zaltyre

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:42 PM

Its not just a viable strategy, in many quests its the best strategy. Personally i think some more hand management style mechanics would have been better than the current system.

 

I would not personally call an ability that makes the overlord discard a card fun for the hero, nor is it fun for the overlord to have to discard the card.

 

My issue here is not if it works or not technically its just the enjoyment that is derived from those mechanics.

As a hero, I get the same satisfaction forcing the OL to discard a card he wanted to play as I would (as an OL) forcing a hero to suffer fatigue such that he was unable to use a key ability. 

Hah! Let's see you "Dash" Splig off the map now! is very much comparable to looks like you're too exhausted to summon your skeleton buddy, necromancer- rotten luck you got hit by that grease trap, eh?



#8 Whitewing

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 09:46 PM

Its not just a viable strategy, in many quests its the best strategy. Personally i think some more hand management style mechanics would have been better than the current system.

 

I would not personally call an ability that makes the overlord discard a card fun for the hero, nor is it fun for the overlord to have to discard the card.

 

My issue here is not if it works or not technically its just the enjoyment that is derived from those mechanics.

 

Are you kidding? My players have a ton of fun every time they force me to discard an important card. They have so much fun with it that one of them plays the wildlander for danger sense nearly every time.

 

And yes, it's a good way to counter one of the overlord's best strategies, but the sacrifices they make to perform that counter opens other options. People get way too fixated on one way to play and don't consider adapting correctly.



#9 Indalecio

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:32 AM

Additional OL discard strategies in MoR?  :angry:

 

I wasn't too much on the spoilers before then but I've played against the Wildlander and did not get much "joy" out of it.

 

I agree that it must be a ton of fun for the heroes who can scream "hurray" after you just discarded Dash, but I strongly disagree that players make a sacrifice for playing this type of effect. It's the best thing they can play every turn, period.The only unknown factor they have upon planning their actions is the OL hand. Take away this risk and you can safely plan for anything you like, AND in addition prevent the OL from doing his side of the planning. No surprise attack. No surprise move. You have 5 health left? No way this goblin will kill you if no OL card involved so let's spend my two actions attacking. This to me is a very viable strategy.

 

I absolutely HATE discard mechanisms as they remove options from the player and force them to make bad choices (like playing a card too soon by fear of losing it later). It puts a lot of pressure on the OL who already has a bunch of it against 4 other minds and a set of abilities and equipment he can hardly compete against... bar the use of the OL cards which are truly the only help to the OL. Relics and plot cards are a nothing compared to that.

 

However, I will go ahead and say that hoarding OL cards during encounter 1 to win encounter 2 off the back of these cards is not the most beautiful way of claiming a victory, and I can understand the frustration from hero players when this happens. Even if I hate discard in all possible ways, I can see how it would prevent this strategy from being carried out and as such I am not completely opposed to it in that particular situation. What I'm opposed to however is heroes spanning discard OL card abilities turn after turn to negate the few options the OL has to do anything against the heroes. OL in topdeck mode is not a pretty sight.

 

It's a powerful mechanism put in the hands of the heroes (should they choose the class using this obviously). I agree that it comes at the price of not doing something else, but that's a valid point for any class/ability in the game. I don't see how running this strategy wouldn't be a very eficient way of supporting the team, so who cares if you are not attacking twice a round or spending an action to do whatever if the best option you have is to force a discard.


Edited by Indalecio, 25 August 2014 - 01:35 AM.


#10 Zaltyre

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:44 AM

However, I will go ahead and say that hoarding OL cards during encounter 1 to win encounter 2 off the back of these cards is not the most beautiful way of claiming a victory, and I can understand the frustration from hero players when this happens. Even if I hate discard in all possible ways, I can see how it would prevent this strategy from being carried out and as such I am not completely opposed to it in that particular situation. What I'm opposed to however is heroes spanning discard OL card abilities turn after turn to negate the few options the OL has to do anything against the heroes. OL in topdeck mode is not a pretty sight.

I agree with many of your points, however I have a few things to add. For "Danger Sense," it costs an action and 2 fatigue to force the OL to discard 1 card at random. If the OL is forced to discard a "Tripwire," for example, that's actually to the OL benefit. If Jane had moved and he played it, it would only have cost her an action. Danger sense cost her an action and 2 fatigue. Additionally, if the OL's goal was to use that card to keep a hero from moving, that's one action that was not used for a move action anyway. (I realize this case is limited to some trap cards, and it's different when you're sacrificing 1 hero action to deprive 1 shadow dragon of an attack action ("Frenzy"), for instance.)

 

For Mok's feat, it's limited to once per encounter, though it's very powerful in that the heroes get to see the hand. However, since Nerekhall, the OL has options for avoiding the card hoarding strategy- like "Refresh" which lets him shuffle the discard pile back into the deck sooner than it would be- allowing him to burn through really useful cards like "Dash" and "Frenzy" (getting them out of reach of Mok and Jane) and then put them back in his deck quickly where he can draw them again (this also helps if Mok threw away "Dash," though you do have to hope the shuffle is in your favor- but that's always the case for the OL.)

 

And there are cards like Placebo, which let the OL return the favor to the heroes by flipping down search cards before they can use them.


Edited by Zaltyre, 25 August 2014 - 06:45 AM.


#11 Indalecio

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:22 AM

 

However, I will go ahead and say that hoarding OL cards during encounter 1 to win encounter 2 off the back of these cards is not the most beautiful way of claiming a victory, and I can understand the frustration from hero players when this happens. Even if I hate discard in all possible ways, I can see how it would prevent this strategy from being carried out and as such I am not completely opposed to it in that particular situation. What I'm opposed to however is heroes spanning discard OL card abilities turn after turn to negate the few options the OL has to do anything against the heroes. OL in topdeck mode is not a pretty sight.

I agree with many of your points, however I have a few things to add. For "Danger Sense," it costs an action and 2 fatigue to force the OL to discard 1 card at random. If the OL is forced to discard a "Tripwire," for example, that's actually to the OL benefit. If Jane had moved and he played it, it would only have cost her an action. Danger sense cost her an action and 2 fatigue. Additionally, if the OL's goal was to use that card to keep a hero from moving, that's one action that was not used for a move action anyway. (I realize this case is limited to some trap cards, and it's different when you're sacrificing 1 hero action to deprive 1 shadow dragon of an attack action ("Frenzy"), for instance.)

 

For Mok's feat, it's limited to once per encounter, though it's very powerful in that the heroes get to see the hand. However, since Nerekhall, the OL has options for avoiding the card hoarding strategy- like "Refresh" which lets him shuffle the discard pile back into the deck sooner than it would be- allowing him to burn through really useful cards like "Dash" and "Frenzy" (getting them out of reach of Mok and Jane) and then put them back in his deck quickly where he can draw them again (this also helps if Mok threw away "Dash," though you do have to hope the shuffle is in your favor- but that's always the case for the OL.)

 

And there are cards like Placebo, which let the OL return the favor to the heroes by flipping down search cards before they can use them.

 

 

I just had a couple of comments to the post you made:

 

- I agree that the 2 fatigue cost on Danger Sense is not a nothing, but it can be easily recovered through the use of other class abilities. Honestly, this game from the heroes' perspective is about managing stamina, nothing else comes even close. I even have a group with a Stalker placing traps next to players and use Makeshift Trap so they can recover stamina when they take their turn. There are tons of ways to recover these 2 staminas. I would say these 2 staminas is the reasonable cost for such ability, but I don't consider this as being a hinder for using said skill every turn, in most cases.

 

- There are indeed some utility cards at the OL's disposal, I just hate to be forced to invest in such purely reactive cards when I should be spending my XP on trying to grant me more options rather than fighting to keep the ones I should already be having. I would agree that parts of my investments/choices should be dedicated to react to my evergrowing heroes' abilities so I can counter them the best I can, however XP for the OL is not exactly flowing out the gates. I think what kills it in my opinion is the system that forces you to invest in class 1 cards before you can get a class 2 card. The only bad thing about this system is that you are forced to invest in subpar cards (which will mostly become redundant after some point) in order to keep going with the upgrades. It means that I am forced to invest in a crappy class 1 card instead of a better universal card if I want to go deep in one of the OL trees. Then sure, you can get the re-spec award from rumor quests (which I'm not playing for half a million other reasons), where you can get rid of the class 1 stuff and invest in these universal cards. I just don't find the investment in Universal cards as being that trivial in this game, or at least until you find yourself in a spot when you sit happy with your class and wonder about what to invest in next. And before somebody says it, yeah Web Trap is a fine class 1 card and there are some other good ones too, but the point remains :)


Edited by Indalecio, 25 August 2014 - 07:34 AM.


#12 Zaltyre

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:32 AM

 I think what kills it in my opinion is the system that forces you to invest in class 1 cards before you can get a class 2 card. The only bad thing about this system is that you are forced to invest in subpar cards (which will mostly become redundant after some point) in order to keep going with the upgrades. It means that I am forced to invest in a crappy class 1 card instead of a better universal card if I want to go deep in one of the OL trees.

I don't mind that system, as what the OL lacks in the ability to rapidly ascend a tree he gains in the wide range of abilities available to him. A hero must choose his class at the beginning of a campaign and is stuck with it. The OL is free to not commit to a class at any point. I've heard of houserules that let universal cards stand in for cards of another class (that is, they're a "wild" class when it comes to leveling up) but I don't really advocate that.



#13 Indalecio

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:56 AM

 

 I think what kills it in my opinion is the system that forces you to invest in class 1 cards before you can get a class 2 card. The only bad thing about this system is that you are forced to invest in subpar cards (which will mostly become redundant after some point) in order to keep going with the upgrades. It means that I am forced to invest in a crappy class 1 card instead of a better universal card if I want to go deep in one of the OL trees.

I don't mind that system, as what the OL lacks in the ability to rapidly ascend a tree he gains in the wide range of abilities available to him. A hero must choose his class at the beginning of a campaign and is stuck with it. The OL is free to not commit to a class at any point. I've heard of houserules that let universal cards stand in for cards of another class (that is, they're a "wild" class when it comes to leveling up) but I don't really advocate that.

 

 

I don't dislike the system either, I think it makes sense. But it indirectly makes these Universal cards subpar, not in terms of how powerful they are (because they are indeed good for the most part), but in terms of class card selection. I guess it depends on how you are doing your skill roadmap as the OL. 

 

About the heroes: you are correct that the heroes are stuck with the class they chose originally, but they also have permanent access to all abilities they invest in. I mean, if you knew you could use Dash every time you needed it (which is always, lol) would you bother invest in cards that allow you to recycle your discard pile? Not sure what my exact point is here :) but consistency in this game seems to pay off more often than diversity, bearing in mind the randomness in the dice and card draw from the OL's perspective.



#14 Zaltyre

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:17 AM

 

About the heroes: you are correct that the heroes are stuck with the class they chose originally, but they also have permanent access to all abilities they invest in. I mean, if you knew you could use Dash every time you needed it (which is always, lol) would you bother invest in cards that allow you to recycle your discard pile? Not sure what my exact point is here :) but consistency in this game seems to pay off more often than diversity, bearing in mind the randomness in the dice and card draw from the OL's perspective.

 

Of course "Dash" all the time is better than "Dash" only when you draw it. However, the heroes must manage their fatigue (as you said earlier) to utilize abilities, and the OL has many abilities at his constant disposal (monster abilities, that is) that can drain that pool of fatigue the heroes have accessible. Descent, I'm sure we all know, is an asymmetric strategy game. While some people prefer how the heroes go about winning and other prefer the OL's system, in the end the only question that matters is whether the two very distinct systems are matched in their ability to complete quest objectives while hindering the other party from doing the same. In my opinion, in most cases they are. Within that context, I enjoy picking at the weak points in each strategy, whether that's forcing the OL to drop cards he'd love to use, or forcing heroes to suffer fatigue they need to do abilities- because that's what antagonists do- they make things difficult.

 

Speaking of "it's easy for a hero to recover 2 fatigue," I'd direct you to the shadowmancer class and cards like "Imploding Rift" that can burden every hero in range with all of his fatigue.

 

Also, I recommend you check out the Nerekhall quest "Nightmares." Within that quest, the OL gets to flip hero skills facedown as part of a victory objective- it's a really intriguing quest. 


Edited by Zaltyre, 25 August 2014 - 08:22 AM.


#15 BentoSan

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:43 AM

Well i am glad someone gets satisfaction out of the mechanic to make the overlord lose cards because i don't from a hero nor a OL's perspective. Part to do with it is that it doesn't feel thematic at all on top of the previously stated technical aspects.


Edited by BentoSan, 25 August 2014 - 08:44 AM.


#16 Extortion

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:50 PM

 

 While some people prefer how the heroes go about winning and other prefer the OL's system, in the end the only question that matters is whether the two very distinct systems are matched in their ability to complete quest objectives while hindering the other party from doing the same. In my opinion, in most cases they are. Within that context, I enjoy picking at the weak points in each strategy, whether that's forcing the OL to drop cards he'd love to use, or forcing heroes to suffer fatigue they need to do abilities- because that's what antagonists do- they make things difficult.

 

 

This.

 

I've done a few campaigns all as the OL and I find that the key to success is finding weaknesses in the hero party and being able to react and adjust.  I sometimes can't help but laugh at comments that say "do this and it will always give you the best chance to win" or "these heroes with these classes are the best and everything else is a waste of your time". Wildlander forcing you to discard cards? Maybe be more aggressive with using cards to keep the pressure up on the heroes throughout an entire quest. Is it Jain? Maybe make a point of getting damage on her to make her think twice about taking 2 fatigue as she's essentially burning health. 






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