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Would a true ISD be OP?


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#1 tiefanatic

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 03:35 PM

So, i was thinking that, since the standard ISD has about 70 turbolasers and 60 Ion Cannons, wouldn't it WAY overpowered if FFG kept too the canon attack value it should have?


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#2 Hrathen

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 03:44 PM

I don't think an ISD would be OP in this game.  The number of dice you roll is not the number of any specific type of weapon you have.  All those turbolasers and ion cannons just mean it has a lot of firepower, but it isn't an entirely different scale of firepower as a VSD.  I think it is even possible to include Super Star Destroyers in this game.

 

Taking everything to a higher scale where huge cruiser (or even larger) ships can be represented is what this game is all about.


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#3 admiralcrunch

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 03:51 PM

I don't think an ISD would be OP in this game.  The number of dice you roll is not the number of any specific type of weapon you have.  All those turbolasers and ion cannons just mean it has a lot of firepower, but it isn't an entirely different scale of firepower as a VSD.  I think it is even possible to include Super Star Destroyers in this game.
 
Taking everything to a higher scale where huge cruiser (or even larger) ships can be represented is what this game is all about.


What he said.

I would go so far to say that Armada would be pointless without ISDs and Mon Cals.
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#4 TheTuninator

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:13 PM

Should ISDs, the single most iconic capital ship from the entire series (and, some might argue, the entire genre) not be playable, Armada will have failed as a game.

 

Needless to say, they will be playable. An ISD I will probably cost in the realm of 130-140 points and have a terrifying amount of firepower, but be slow as molasses and highly vulnerable to snubfighter attack. 

 

FFG isn't too strict on "canon" attack values anyways; note that the X-Wing only rolls 1 more attack die than the TIE in the X-Wing minis game despite having twice as many lasers, and the lasers being stronger to begin with. 


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#5 Norsehound

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:11 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if ISDs ended up being the heaviest conventional ships in the game, maxing out at 2, honestly.

 

It's easy to think of Imperial Star Destroyers being "only the mainstays" of the Imperial forces and easily defeated. They're the most common capital ship after all, and they get blown up all the time whenever the heroes cross paths with one in the EU.... except in some places, which talk about how dangerous and suicidal it is to approach one. Star Destroyers are to be feared.

 

If FFG is taking this to heart, then I expect to see a respectable star destroyer piece eventually in the game. Empire players will love to take them and smash enemy ships with them until they realize how ponderous and limited they are when set across the table from the more nimble and numerous rebel players. They will still be powerful hammers of the Imperial navy but then I think you'll see just one, with a mix of escort vessels and fighters. They'll occupy a similar niche Firesprays/shuttles do in Imperial lists by being large-ship anchors for entire formations.


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#6 Funk Fu master

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:26 AM

One thing I hope they get right is the fact that ISDs are not slow at all. Yes they are ponderous and have a propensity to run into asteroids/each other, but they are in no way slow.

 

One was effectively keeping up with the Falcon in both ANH and ESB, only due to fancy flying did han escape.

 

They were designed to be the successor to the VSD in every way, so I do believe they should be faster in the game, maybe a 3 speed with no turn allowed.


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#7 keroko

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:28 AM

I'd be surprised if we can even take two efficiently. Taking three Victory's is already cutting into your points a lot. I think we're going to see a lot more fleets with a single Star Destroyer as their command ship and several support ships.
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#8 VanorDM

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:07 AM

I too expect ISD's to be in the game, and to be in the 100+ point range, most likely 115 for the ISD I and 125-130 for the ISD II.

They won't be OP'ed however. Using Wookiepedia as a guide, the ISD II has about twice the firepower of the VSD II. So that means if it rolls say 9 dice in the fore arc vs 6, that's going to feel about right I think. Especially if they get say 3 red, 3 blue and 3 black.

Now the SSD on the other hand, has about forty times the firepower a ISD II has. There's no way to come close to that level of firepower in this game for 300 points.

Edited by VanorDM, 21 August 2014 - 08:08 AM.

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#9 Bilisknir

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:34 AM

Stuff the number of points who has enough space (and dice) to roll 360 attack dice? I do have a simple solution for that though. Roll 3 dice. If any land on the table destroy the target.


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#10 Beatty

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:49 AM

Just for a point of reference; the Victory class is 900m long; an average SSD is 19,000m long. If they kept even close to scale the nose of it would be in your opponent's deployment zone at the start of the game.

Edited by Beatty, 21 August 2014 - 08:52 AM.

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#11 Arcane Springboard

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:50 PM

I expect to see a Super Star Destroyer about the size of the X-Wing Tantive IV at some point.


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#12 keroko

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:59 PM

Not unless Armada gets its own epic format. Pointwise it's already looking like it's going to be hard enough to field three Victory's. I'd be surprised if we can field more than one kitted Imperial class Star Destroyer. An SSD would be even more point expensive to field.



#13 Parravon

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:04 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if ISDs ended up being the heaviest conventional ships in the game, maxing out at 2, honestly.

 

It's easy to think of Imperial Star Destroyers being "only the mainstays" of the Imperial forces and easily defeated. They're the most common capital ship after all, and they get blown up all the time whenever the heroes cross paths with one in the EU.... except in some places, which talk about how dangerous and suicidal it is to approach one. Star Destroyers are to be feared.

 

If FFG is taking this to heart, then I expect to see a respectable star destroyer piece eventually in the game. Empire players will love to take them and smash enemy ships with them until they realize how ponderous and limited they are when set across the table from the more nimble and numerous rebel players. They will still be powerful hammers of the Imperial navy but then I think you'll see just one, with a mix of escort vessels and fighters. They'll occupy a similar niche Firesprays/shuttles do in Imperial lists by being large-ship anchors for entire formations.

This has got to be the soundest analysis I've seen so far. The inclusion of the ISD (I or II) isn't really a question. As admiralcrunch pointed out, the game would be pointless without it.

It's going to be interesting to see how effective they are going to be. They should be able to go toe to toe with Mon Calamari cruisers for a few turns, and the resulting slugging matches could be entertaining. I'm hoping fighters and bombers aren't going to be able to take them out too easily. They should be an annoyance with an outside chance of inflicting damage, but not really capable of crippling an ISD each turn.

We're speculating on only being able to field maybe one ISD and a few support ships for the points, but this game is sure to go epic later on down the track, and it wouldn't surprise me if we get to see some really large fleet actions.


Edited by Parravon, 21 August 2014 - 05:07 PM.

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#14 keroko

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:16 PM

You need to field at least 11 bombers if you want to have a chance of crippling a VSD in a single turn. If we stick to 14 points as a price, that's at least 154 points in fighters. Well over half the army, and still susceptible to being intercepted or simply being blown out of the sky by anti-squadron fire.

 

And that's just the Victory, the Imperial class is going to have its stats even higher, which means you'd need even more fighters to bring it down reliably in a single turn. At which point the ISD might just target the few capital ships in your fleet and win by blowing them out of space.

 

Could mass-fighter work? Maybe. But I expect it to be a gamble, especially since the victory conditions state to destroy the opponent's capital ships, not every unit on the board.


Edited by keroko, 21 August 2014 - 05:16 PM.


#15 Thalomen

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:18 PM

Not unless Armada gets its own epic format. Pointwise it's already looking like it's going to be hard enough to field three Victory's. I'd be surprised if we can field more than one kitted Imperial class Star Destroyer. An SSD would be even more point expensive to field.



I have no intention of sticking to 300 point games. When I play with friends we might go as high as 500, and why not? Get some real fleets out there. 300 will be a good game, and Im sure I and others will use it often but theres no reason to let that restrain me if my oppenent is willing to give it a go.

#16 Black Knight Leader

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 11:50 PM

So, i was thinking that, since the standard ISD has about 70 turbolasers and 60 Ion Cannons, wouldn't it WAY overpowered if FFG kept too the canon attack value it should have?


From what iv seen yes they whould be op. They carry more difrent types of weapons than you wrote, also there some SD that are built with alternate load outs.

The heavy heavy turbo broadsides have a firing range of 15 light min. Most rebs don't come close to that range.

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#17 Funk Fu master

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:49 AM

Really, 15 light minutes. Thats 270 million km.thats almost 2 au, or Mar's distance from the sun. That figure is way out of proportion. 15 light seconds, that would be 4.5 million km, which is still ridiculous but not as bad. About 11 times the distance from the earth to the moon.
It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it. ( or stat wars is in the discworld universe where light travels very slowly)

#18 RogueCorona

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 02:26 AM

Really, 15 light minutes. Thats 270 million km.thats almost 2 au, or Mar's distance from the sun. That figure is way out of proportion. 15 light seconds, that would be 4.5 million km, which is still ridiculous but not as bad. About 11 times the distance from the earth to the moon.
It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it. ( or stat wars is in the discworld universe where light travels very slowly)

 

 

Yeah not even the LOTF Long range turbolasers, which take so much energy to fire that an ISDII can't power its shields and fire four batteries of them at the same time, have been shown as having anything near a 15 Light Second range much less 15 Light Minutes. In fact all of the ship battles we see in the Star Wars films and novels that I recall take place at a range of less then 1 Light Second  believe. Maybe 1 or 2 Light seconds at most but no where near 15.


Edited by RogueCorona, 22 August 2014 - 02:28 AM.


#19 keroko

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 02:45 AM

 

Not unless Armada gets its own epic format. Pointwise it's already looking like it's going to be hard enough to field three Victory's. I'd be surprised if we can field more than one kitted Imperial class Star Destroyer. An SSD would be even more point expensive to field.



I have no intention of sticking to 300 point games. When I play with friends we might go as high as 500, and why not? Get some real fleets out there. 300 will be a good game, and Im sure I and others will use it often but theres no reason to let that restrain me if my oppenent is willing to give it a go.

 

Oh, so will I, but FFG will be making models with those 300 points in mind. And I doubt an SSD fits into that.



#20 VanorDM

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:03 AM

It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it.


Well in Star Wars apparently distance = Speed, since Han boasted about completing the Kessle Run in less then 12 parsec's.

Clearly people in SciFi use terms all the time that they don't really understand, or get units wrong... Like the fact that the whole planet of Alderaan had a couple Million people on it.




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