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Overlord Help Needed


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#1 s1n

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:20 PM

So I'm 2 quests into the Shadows of Nerekhall campaign and I'm starting to struggle quite a bit against the heroes I am playing against:

 

  • Durik (Beastmaster)
  • Jaes (Runemaster)
  • Elder Mok (Disciple)
  • Logan (Treasure Hunter)

 

I've chosen:

  • Belthir plot deck
  • Basic 1 OL deck
  • Shadowmancer
  • +Solidarity

 

Where to start? All heroes have 10+ health, Jaes has an armor that gives +1 gray die. Elder Mok has a Deflecting Shield. Logan has the crossbow accessory. All heroes can move 4+ and have at least 1 attribute of 4+.

 

Logan can typically do 6-8 damage, so a single bad roll will kill almost every monster in a single shot (he actually did 24 damage in 3 attacks and 1-shotted a master Ettin last quest). Jaes barely takes damage, Elder Mok passes the damage off and barely takes any damage. Durik can summon the wolf to add more damage and the extra brown die.

 

I have yet to see a monster get placed that can survive for more than 1 turn if the heroes attack it (assuming they are not unlucky and roll mostly misses).

 

Rather than attacking, I started focusing on attribute tests, and with the Master Changling, I can force a failure on Willpower usually (Whisper is an awesome skill) and sometimes on the other checks. Unfortunately, it seems monsters that can inflict conditions might work, but Mok clears them up rather quickly without expending actions.

 

I just barely lost the intro quest, I won the Without Mercy quest (chose to make the executioner not corrupt and pretended to setup for escorting), and lost the Local Politics quest (couldn't slow them down even though I won part 1 and they had all day to test the magistrates).

 

Which quest should I choose next (we're playing where the loser chooses)? What weaknesses should I look to exploit with this group? What overall strategies should I target (such as hoarding OL cards)?

 

I'm afraid of choosing one that offers a good reward because the reward to the heroes is typically as good and we're near the heroes' power peak in Act 1. I would really like to get the Scholar card from The Incident, but that offers the heroes yet another free shop item.



#2 Zaltyre

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:09 PM

Do not pick Rat-Thing King. I lost that soundly to a less intimidating party than yours. I don't know that I'd worry about conditions so much as doing damage via fatigue- unless you can make them spend actual actions to get rid of them- and do everything you can to get Dark Charm into your hand. Mistrust will be a nice card to buy, as it makes the Disciple moving next to heroes cost an extra fatigue for prayer of healing. I found the punisher card "trading pains" to be a real frustration for a disciple healer, especially one with good defense.

 

EDIT: I forgot to say. Small monsters are one of your greatest tools now. You need to throw out the conventional wisdom that shadow dragons are the best- when the party is decimating your forces, it's just not true. They can still be very useful, but you have to rethink your strategy. Something like goblin archers can end up doing more damage because they survive longer, and the heroes need to expend more actions to take them out. (When Jaes gets a blast attack, just make sure to keep them separated.)


Edited by Zaltyre, 19 August 2014 - 06:01 AM.


#3 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:49 PM

  • Logan (Treasure Hunter)

...Logan has the crossbow accessory.

 

Oh dear.


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#4 Whitewing

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:14 PM

 

  • Logan (Treasure Hunter)

...Logan has the crossbow accessory.

 

Oh dear.

 

 

That's the hand crossbow, not the actual crossbow. The overlord isn't completely screwed for act 1 yet =p.



#5 amoshias

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 09:22 AM

You are unfortunately playing against a group that's decided they want the cheesiest, twinked-out wins possible, so they've chosen the most broken characters/classes available. Seriously, Logan as a Treasure Hunter? I honestly can't imagine wanting to win that badly. Mok as a disciple, ho hum, what a surprise. Jaes as a Runemaster, at least they didn't try the harder to play but more powerful Geomancer. And Durik as a Beastmaster - in another thread I call this the weakest warrior class, but make the exception that in a really powerful party he can be a great support class. And that's what's going on here.

 

So, you're playing against a bunch of cheesy twinks. Just makes victory all the sweeter! Always remember, the overlord's job is to win quests. Fighting the heroes, inflicting conditions - these are all tools in the toolbox to accomplish those goals. They are not goals in and of themselves.

 

I got to this position in the first campaign I played. Two adventures in, my heroes could one-shot any monster I could throw at them, the Disciple rendered conditions virtually irrelevant, fighting them seemed impossible and I couldn't stop them.

 

That's when I discovered Kobolds, the best monster in the game. If you don't have the conversion kit, go out, get it, and then Kobold their twink faces into the ground every time. (I actually - after suggesting the idea to my group - have banned Kobolds in our games. It makes the game much more interesting when there's not a best choice monster. But if the heroes are twinking out like this, you should too.)

 

Here's what kobolds don't do - they don't try to compete with the heroes in any of the areas you are having problems with. Oh no! You can do eight points of damage three times a round? Have three kobolds... I have 12 more. They don't waste time trying to inflict conditions... or fight at all, most of them time. When they DO fight, they do so with overwhelming force. Elder Mok is a pain because he heals for 4 or 5 every turn, for free... so when you go after him, just make sure you swarm him... two +6 damage surges will kill him in one turn.

 

Oh, on top of that, Kobolds are a great combo with Belthir. IIRC, Belthir can do things like upgrade Frenzy or Dash to help the whole group - Kobolds LOVE stuff that helps the whole group.

 

Chose adventures you can use Kobolds' numbers to gum up. Prevent heroes from completing objectives; run out the clock. Let them waste time blasting and smashing 2-hp monsters over and over again. Unfortunately I don't know the SoN campaign well enough for specific advice, but Ritual of Shadows from Shadow Rune is my favorite example of kobolds doing their job. Put Kobolds in that corridor, and it's almost mathematically impossible for heroes to get to the ritual room in six turns - at least not without leaving one hero pushed out in front and totally exposed. In which case kobolds do a bang-up job of swarming and eliminating.

 

The main piece of advice, though, is to always remember that your goal is to win quests, and fighting, immobilizing, etc are tools to accomplish that. And to accomplish that? Always use Kobolds. (Or find an adventure where the MONSTERS have to move something towards the exit, and choose Sorcerors. That always makes some jaws drop.)



#6 s1n

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:12 AM

Great response amoshias! Some feedback.

 

You're right, they are twinked out and it's obnoxious. Logan is the breaking point for me though. I seriously think he needs to be nerfed badly. Naturally, the heroes don't agree and think things are fine.

 

I have all of the content from the game (including 1st edition and conversion kit), but I haven't used Kobolds yet. They always looked too flimsy considering every hero has a Pierce 1-2 item and they only roll brown dice (they'd be an open group, so I won't get them back from reinforcements).

 

I think the only thing reliable is they will fail Willpower checks, fairly regularly, and sometimes other attribute tests. That's why I bought Solidarity, so Dark Charm and Treacherous Shadows are almost certainly going to work. It also means I can consistantly perform a Whisper with the Changlings, and if positioned properly, do it enough in 1 turn to move them a full movement away from a target.

 

I'll post some of the mission summaries later and my thoughts on how I should approach them. I'd love feedback to better handle this group.



#7 s1n

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:19 AM

EDIT: I forgot to say. Small monsters are one of your greatest tools now. You need to throw out the conventional wisdom that shadow dragons are the best- when the party is decimating your forces, it's just not true. They can still be very useful, but you have to rethink your strategy. Something like goblin archers can end up doing more damage because they survive longer, and the heroes need to expend more actions to take them out. (When Jaes gets a blast attack, just make sure to keep them separated.)

 

Noted! Yeah, I found that ranged monsters that hit hard or inflict conditions (such as stunned) are better. For example, I am starting to like:

  • Elementals (Air means you can't hit me now, so I don't have to move)
  • Carrion Drake (I can fly around you for better positioning)
  • Chaos Beasts (You have a nice weapon, I'd like to attack you with it)
  • Nagas (ranged using Blue+Red with Sorcery, get close and I'll Grab you)
  • Manticore (ranged ravage!)

Most of these aren't small though. I'll need to go through the small monsters and see if there is anything worth the time. I definitely like the idea behind the Hybrid Sentinals though.



#8 Alarmed

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:21 AM

The advice Ialways give is fatigue.

 

Hit them with everything that drains their stamina. Barghests, traps , whatever you have to do to keep them too tired to use powers.


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#9 Carbini

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:10 PM

The advice Ialways give is fatigue.

 

Hit them with everything that drains their stamina. Barghests, traps , whatever you have to do to keep them too tired to use powers.

Could not agree more. Hit them right in the stamina whenever possible. If you see someone with a low faith value, hit them with a disease from carrion drakes or barghest howl.

Also don't forget the rule that if you knock a hero out, they suffer stamina up to their limit. My group missed this rule on our first campaign. I was OL and still managed to push through... but had I known...



#10 Alarmed

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 07:46 AM

 

Also don't forget the rule that if you knock a hero out, they suffer stamina up to their limit. My group missed this rule on our first campaign. I was OL and still managed to push through... but had I known...

 

Once the healer is out of play because he can't use any powers because of fatigue, add these two steps to the process:

Repeat

Profit

 

:lol:  :P



#11 s1n

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:36 AM

 

 

Also don't forget the rule that if you knock a hero out, they suffer stamina up to their limit. My group missed this rule on our first campaign. I was OL and still managed to push through... but had I known...

 

Once the healer is out of play because he can't use any powers because of fatigue, add these two steps to the process:

Repeat

Profit

 

:lol:  :P

 

 

Keeping Mok down is tough because he heals up to 4 health a round. So even if I knock him down, someone could elect to not spend a surge and he could stand up (with 1 health) for free. That can get him up to nearly half his health without spending actions or fatigue.



#12 BentoSan

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:53 AM

Elder Mok's hero ability only works once per turn as of his release in the heroes and monsters collection. I highly recommend making sure your players are using the new version and not the over powered older version.



#13 amoshias

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 10:19 AM

Also, his ability will NOT work when he's down on the ground.

 

To everyone (including the OP) who's saying "No, kobolds are too weak, use Manticores or Elementals or whatever instead" - you are misunderstanding my point. You've already said that the heroes can reliably dish out 8 points of damage an attack, multiple times a round. So who would you prefer them dish that out to? An elemental, which represents 1/2 of its group's power? Or a kobold, who represents 1/15?

 

OP, you are losing because you are facing the heroes on their own terms. If you think, "Oh, all I need is a monster tough enough" - or even worse, "all I need is to inflict MORE conditions on them" then you are going to continue losing, because you're attacking their strengths.

 

Kobolds attack their weaknesses. It's ALWAYS a better strategy.



#14 Alarmed

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 10:47 AM

He can recover health or fatigue, one, only once per turn. This means he can recover lots health, but only if everyone in the party is within 3 squares and also recovering either 1 health or 1 stamina. His ability is a great ability, but it's not Wolverine level regeneration and if he's down, he can't use his ability until he recovers. This means it's important for a party that's been completely knocked out to plan when to make Mok recover (first) giving the OL a pretty good idea of what monster placement he should be looking at (surrounding Mok).

 

The 3 square range also means that making the players spread out for objectives will make them vulnerable, since Mok won't be able to help them, and he won't be able to benefit from their own healing.


Edited by Alarmed, 20 August 2014 - 10:50 AM.


#15 s1n

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 10:57 AM

He can recover health or fatigue, one, only once per turn. This means he can recover lots health, but only if everyone in the party is within 3 squares and also recovering either 1 health or 1 stamina. His ability is a great ability, but it's not Wolverine level regeneration and if he's down, he can't use his ability until he recovers. This means it's important for a party that's been completely knocked out to plan when to make Mok recover (first) giving the OL a pretty good idea of what monster placement he should be looking at (surrounding Mok).

 

The 3 square range also means that making the players spread out for objectives will make them vulnerable, since Mok won't be able to help them, and he won't be able to benefit from their own healing.

 

I think you should reread Elder Mok:

 

Once per turn, when another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more Heart.png or Fatigue.png, you may recover 1 Heart.png or 1 Fatigue.png.

 

Once per turn (hero turn), if they recover stamina or health, Elder Mok can recover 1 stamina or health. If a nearby hero attacks and elects to spend the surge to recover stamina, then Elder Mok can recover 1 health, which effectively stands him up. He can do this 4 times a round, getting him from being knocked out to 4/10 health. He can then use Prayer of Healing on himself to get back up to 7/10 without even taking an action.

 

That's just one turn. If I don't do 7 more damage a turn, then Elder Mok is back to full health, effectively wasting 2 of my turns while I focus on knocking him down.

 

Attacking Elder Mok with Disciple only serves as a means to a) harrass the heroes or b) collect threat/OL cards.



#16 AiriusTorpora

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:06 PM

Hold on... if Mok is down ... "A hero cannot use skills or abilities while knocked out, unless an effect specifically allows it."

 

Mok does not get a free stand up... he needs to stand up or be stood up before the healing engine can begin. Otherwise it is once per turn, not once per round... that means each player turn... AND somehow if it could miraculously happen, the overlord turn too.



#17 Zaltyre

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:14 PM

Hold on... if Mok is down ... "A hero cannot use skills or abilities while knocked out, unless an effect specifically allows it."

Correct. Hero abilities and skills are "inactive" while you're knocked out, unless it's a skill that has something specific to do with being knocked out (see: Skirmisher.) Mok's hero ability doesn't work while he's knocked out. 



#18 Carbini

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:19 PM

Yea it doesn't say "once per round" or "once during YOUR turn." It does say "once per turn..." so if your allies gained stamina on their turn you would trigger it. Also if your wildlander used First strike on the OL's turn and regained stamina form a surge you would also trigger it.

Well I'll be damned... I never caught that...



#19 Alarmed

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:00 AM

Yes, Elder Mok's ability includes the ability to recover health or fatigue on the OL's turn... under very specific circumstances that won't occur in every game.

 

Also, I'm currently palying Elder Mok, so I'm well aware of what he can and can't do. A player looks to frustrate his OL with cunning uses f his skills, feat and ability. A good OL takes that into account and manages to find the weakness.

 

If your allies don't use surges to regain stamina (because they can't attack, because they don't roll any surges, because the situation is so dire, they have to use their surges on other abilities( then Mok doesn't get to heal. If his ally is 4 square away, it doesn't matter how many time the ally recovers stamina, or health. Mok does not recover.

 

So isolate Elder Mok in a corner, swarm him with Volcrux Reavers, howl at him with Barghests, poison him....keep him down and without a healer, the rest of the party will be easier to take care of.



#20 s1n

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:53 AM

Okay, so I overlooked the inability to use abilities when knocked out.

 

Also, I took the advice and used kobolds for The Incident. They worked well at doing 2 things: making the heroes second guess my influence and knocking down Lashley. Twice they were able to knock him down, each attack doing more damage than the previous. They were really great at negating the heroes' pierce ability as they often rolled a blank anyway. I really like the idea of taking more weaker enemies to counter pierce.

 

It did not matter however. I played my Dark Charm too early as I didn't realize how important that card would be near the end (I couldn't get a trap to trigger my plot cards and get it from the discard). I lost yet another quest on the final turn of the heroes. Eldar Mok killed the last rat swarm in the way, healed the knocked out Ceilia, which allowed her to stand up and leave the map.

 

It's getting frustrating to make a single mistake, realize it immediately, and drag out the rest of the quest waiting for the heroes to goof up or get unlucky.






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