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#41 Indalecio

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

Quoting, copy/paste, and probably a bunch of other things don't seem to work at all for me right now on these forums, so please bear with me :(

 

Responding to mulletcheese:

 

I see what you mean, but you cannot have this depth in the storyline in a game that focuses on running short encounters. One of the main appeals of Descent 2E is that you can play this thing without having to spend a ton of time running just one quest, like you would do if you played a role playing game. It is closer to an arcade game, obviously framed by a campaign mechanism to link your events together and allow some depth to some extent in the way you build up your characters and carry on your adventure with friends and foes coming back and so on. So of course, the storyline gets shortened and you might not feel a total immersion as a result, but you can also throw in as much fluff as you want and expand the game with your own knowledge of the Terrinoth world if you and your playgroup think it would spice up your experience. My players want to know about the story behind the characters and the quests they´re playing, but above all they want to rush into the action as soon as possible. They also play role playing game, but the mindset is different with Descent. So yeah, the fantasy theme is streamlined and probably a lot more anonymous compared to heavier games, but it also implies a gain in accessibility that I believe makes the game what it is. Of course you are free to either like it or prefer games that emphasize a lot more on the background story. I like the latter too but I can't afford the time investment, so to me D2E is the perfect game in its genre.



#42 mulletcheese

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:54 PM

If I play imperial assault I know I can use the same characters in xwing, armada, the card game and the rpg. The thing that drew me to descent in the first place D2e has lost and star wars has gained.

There's the conversion kit for D2E, giving you your old D1E heroes. If you're not into that kit, the hero and monster collections are doing the same thing. 20 or so of the D1E heroes are in Runewars.

Which was exactly the point I was making.

D1e had this cross game use of hero's, villains and monsters that tied these seperate games into a larger fantasy setting. All the games were better for it as it moved them generic fantasy settings into the terrinoth world.

D2e did away with that, the conversion kit was added to make D1e fans happier about a reboot, but aside from that and the use of the farrow family in the core game it's in no way tied to the terrinoth setting. It's just generic fantasy with a runebound sticker on the box, nothing new from D2e has impacted any of the other games.

IA comes with a rich setting used by other FFG games, D2e could have a far richer setting if FFG wanted to.

#43 mulletcheese

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:28 PM

So yeah, the fantasy theme is streamlined and probably a lot more anonymous compared to heavier games, but it also implies a gain in accessibility that I believe makes the game what it is. Of course you are free to either like it or prefer games that emphasize a lot more on the background story. I like the latter too but I can't afford the time investment, so to me D2E is the perfect game in its genre.


The accessibility is one of the things that makes D2e great, I love long drawn out games but now I have job/wife/kids all my really long games stay on the shelf but I can always make time for D2e.

A system can be streamlined without the theme suffering, a good game system emphasizes the setting.

In D1e hero's were killed and resurrected back at the town, portals were used to journey back to the dungeon. I never really cared for that explanation but at least it had an explanation and the portals gave as sense of progression during the dungeon crawl.

In D2e hero's are unkillable, no explanation given.

In IA when a hero is knocked out their sheet is flipped over to the wounded side, the wounded side has one less hero ability (like using you once per encounter ability in D2e). If the hero is knocked out again they are forced to retreat and are removed from the map, but can still come back for the next mission. If all hero's are wounded the overlord wins.

The last one is an example of a really good system, it makes thematic sense and brings a host of tactical options into play that the other systems don't. The ability to wound the hero's gives the overlord a sense of achievement and adds an element of peril to the hero's that would otherwise be missing. It could lead to some very tense situations. Even though it's an improved system it's every bit as quick.

#44 Steve-O

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 07:58 PM

D2e did away with that, the conversion kit was added to make D1e fans happier about a reboot, but aside from that and the use of the farrow family in the core game it's in no way tied to the terrinoth setting. It's just generic fantasy with a runebound sticker on the box, nothing new from D2e has impacted any of the other games.


I disagree that the game line is entirely generic, although I will admit that it has been slowly losing its fluffy connections as the expansions wear on. Perhaps that's a result of pumping out too many expansions and not enough time to think up proper stories, or perhaps it's because the designers who started the line seem to have since left the company. It's hard to say.

The Shadow Rune campaign is absolutely flush with references to Terrinoth lore. In addition to the Farrows, Baron Zachareth was originally introduced in the Runewars expansion as a somewhat suspicious character - whose ploys for world domination have now been revealed.

Belthir, as a hybrid, was a tie-in to the Dragonlords which dominated Runebound 2E. References were made to the Dragon Wars, the Curse of the Empty Throne, and the use of rocs as mounts in one of the later quests could be seen as a connection to Runewars army units (and now to BattleLore 2.0.)

Lair of the Wyrm was also well-connected with the introduction of Valyndra as "believed to be the first Dragonlord to create hybrid soldiers."

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for later expansions that came about after Adam Sadler's departure. Shadows of Nerekhall was particularly disappointing in the lack of fluff to connect it to the rest of the world (other than Nerekhall itself, there's not much in the way of references to other Terrinoth lore.)

I think that the idea of recycling the same heroes across multiple game lines was a great way to save money in ages past, but I think it also presented FFG with a logistical nightmare. Each new expansion to one game implied a similar expansion was coming for the others that would introduce the same heroes in the other games. They were effectively making a commitment to multiple game lines by choosing to expand just one. I suspect that's why they stopped releasing the same heroes in each line when they put out DungeonQuest and Mists of Zanaga (and now D2E) each with their own heroes.

I agree that the lore connections between the games could be stronger, but there are probably ways to do that without re-releasing the same figures in 4 different boxes. The core set of D2E did well in this regard. It wold be nice if further expansions could get back to that mentality.

#45 sangeet

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:54 AM

I personally liked about the 2nd edition of Descent that it was faster to play than the first edition. After playing 3 campaigns now, (Shadowrune, Labyrinth of ruin, Nerekhall) i see many flaws. The game is balanced at low levels, but once the players get some weapons and skills, the balance breaks badly.

1. After a scenario, each of the hero's get's one XP, this accumulates to 4 XP for the group + weapons. A overlord gets 1 XP.

 

It tends to get the balance in one direction very fast towards the hero's. The only counter balance for it is, that the quests get's a bit harder, but mostly in a way that there are race conditions created, where there are limited turns for scenario, and its not important to fight the monsters, mostly the monsters are a way to block the hero's, or spending actions on fighting them, instead of pursuing the scenario objective.

 

I would certainly prefer a knockout scenario, where the players get a certain amount of respwans per scenario, and the campaign mode needs to be revamped so there is a more linear progression between the players and overlord power balance.

 

I think the Starwars Assault game looks promising, but without special FX for the Imperium player i assume it gets boring when you cant play some cards.



#46 evilhead

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:04 PM

I just smoked the heroes on the last Nerekhall campaign. /shrug

 

Imperial Assault has a lot of ground to cover to get to the size of Descent & all its expansions. Also people will start to OD on the whole Star Wars thing, especially if the new films are garbage.

 

Imperial Assault getting all the attention in the company could be a thing though, good point. Hope Descent has an evangelist at FFG. Agree about the lack of effort towards lore/fluff/richness of character development in Nerekhall. Some of those maps were huge though, and still some nice mechanics going on in the quests, if a bit close to becoming convoluted.

 

Also agree about the immortal heroes. Dumb. I get it, but still dumb. Maybe offer another mode of play in addition to epic & campaign play. It's FFGs problem to figure out the details :)


Edited by evilhead, 23 August 2014 - 07:05 PM.





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