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Imperial Assault


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#21 BentoSan

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

Whats wrong with a star wars themed Descent? Some people hate fantasy setting but love a sci-fi setting, it just opens up this genre of gaming to new people. 



#22 DAMaz

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:50 AM

boring antagonist mechanics (instead of char.skills the atagonist can... bring in more bad guys)

 

less moving parts (no classes only character-specific skills, no OL-deck, very little imperial forces variation)

 

completely unknown bland heroes (why should I care about them?, do they have any special character traits? they have very little tie-in with the main chars)

 

seemingly no competition leading to no suspension (how was the antagonist supposed to win this demo?)

 

 

too bad this game takes resources off Descent. So far I'm not very interested in this semi-interactive Star-Wars spin-off story-ride with forgetable characters.



#23 rugal

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:11 AM

The problems are simple :

 

- Descent should stay descent

- why not twilight imperium universe ?

- since it's star wars they will do plenty of expansion in short time, time that will not be spend to descent

- If descent players go away from descent, expansion will take time and finnally never come

 

So, I see only one hope : this game will soon burn out, and the experience gained from this will be usefull to descent



#24 Zaltyre

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:30 AM

I just recently watched the demo, and more interesting to me than the line of sight changes (or attribute tests) is the idea of alternating hero /monster group turns rather than all heroes followed by all monsters. The rules for beginning/end of OL turn and the wording of some abilities would have to be changed, but that could absolutely make certain Descent encounters more interesting!


Edited by Zaltyre, 18 August 2014 - 11:30 AM.


#25 DAMaz

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:54 AM

The problems are simple :

 

- Descent should stay descent

- why not twilight imperium universe ?

- since it's star wars they will do plenty of expansion in short time, time that will not be spend to descent

- If descent players go away from descent, expansion will take time and finnally never come

 

So, I see only one hope : this game will soon burn out, and the experience gained from this will be usefull to descent

 

I would enjoy twilight imperium more than star wars as well. At least it's more colorfull and the races are highly different from each other. But I guess the point of this game is high sales-numbers and for that Star-Wars will do a much better job.

 

At least I won't buy this game if there aren't significant changes to the antagonist mechanics. As of now it looks extremely boring, because the impirium is no threat, heroes are easily healed and surprises aren't dynamically initiated via a deck of cards but by the rulebook. It seems like there is no game in there, no meaningfull tactical considerations, as the impirial side just can't do anything to the heroes.


Edited by DAMaz, 18 August 2014 - 11:59 AM.


#26 Alarmed

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 12:32 PM

I don't know what you guys are reading, but what I read is that the Empire (OL)  "can spend threat to replenish squads or summon reinforcements, overwhelming the small team of Rebel operatives if they fail to accomplish their goals quickly" to duplicate the immense ressource advanteage of the Empire.

 

So I'm not seeing how the Imperials are no threat.



#27 amoshias

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 12:44 PM

Did someone, in all seriousness, ask "why not twilight imperium"?

 

Because I would be willing to bet that if you thought really hard you could figure the answer to that out for yourself.


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#28 rugal

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 12:50 PM

Did someone, in all seriousness, ask "why not twilight imperium"?

 

Because I would be willing to bet that if you thought really hard you could figure the answer to that out for yourself.

 

And why not ?

Since TI is something FFG own really, and since it's not something they hold by contract, it would be more logical.



#29 amoshias

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 12:58 PM

Seriously, dude? Are we seriously having this conversation?

 

Okay. FFG is a company which - like many companies - really likes to make money. Actually, way more than most gaming companies.

 

There is a very, very small number of people in the world who give a crap about Twilight Imperium. For every one of them, there are a few thousand people who are lifelong Star Wars fanatics. If you have to sell something, would you prefer to sell to a group that numbers in the thousands, or a group that numbers in the tens of millions?

 

Not to mention the immensely rich, fleshed out universe; immediately recognizable characters and locations; built-in dramatic stakes. Oh, and FFG already has the license.

 

But aside from all of those things, you're right, why not a TI-themed version? I'm sure everyone is dying to find out how good the Joll-Nar are with blasters.


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#30 any2cards

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:09 PM

I just recently watched the demo, and more interesting to me than the line of sight changes (or attribute tests) is the idea of alternating hero /monster group turns rather than all heroes followed by all monsters. The rules for beginning/end of OL turn and the wording of some abilities would have to be changed, but that could absolutely make certain Descent encounters more interesting!

 

Agreed !  I meant to note this in my LOS post, and then forgot, because, well, I can't remember anything.   :P



#31 DAMaz

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:32 PM

I don't know what you guys are reading, but what I read is that the Empire (OL)  "can spend threat to replenish squads or summon reinforcements, overwhelming the small team of Rebel operatives if they fail to accomplish their goals quickly" to duplicate the immense ressource advanteage of the Empire.

 

So I'm not seeing how the Imperials are no threat.

 

Did we see the same demo?

Imperials don't reinforce automatically, they have about 3 HP, no skills, weak attack and defense, cannot heal etc. The heroes have at least 8 HP, special abilities, mostly can heal up to 8HP/ turn if they do nothing else etc. and the OL can reinforce 1 weak guy every 2-3 turns.

Compared to Descent, the imperials are weaker and instead of coming back automatically every turn and additionally getting resources that enable impactfull abilities (OL cards), you have to spend your resources for one guy coming back after 3 turns when everyone else is dead.

I never felt for once that the heroes were in dire situations or that the imperial had some kind of upper hand:

So I damaged your hero 8/12 HP? wait until my strongest 2 troopers will kill you off... after the next hero's turn that can donate you one action to recover 4 HP leaving you with 4/12 damage, again unkillable until the next hero's turn who can donate you one action... and that is if everyone of the imperials focuses on one target, while the others fullfill objectives.

The heroes weren't even rolling well or playing very tactical and they slaughterd the imperial army twice the size of themselves. The imperials were falling after 2 attacks, the heroes took 4 attacks and then healed themselves up to more than half of their HP. Conditions were pointless because the imperials died so quickly.

The game I saw had the imperials falling like flys and then when the heroes were a little bit damaged and finally the thread brought in some new bad guys, the heroes heal themsleves up and effortlessly kill the 3 turn-reinforcement with 2 actions, because everyone else was dead by then.

 

Descent had the threat mechanic additionally to the automatic reinforcements and heroes couldn't heal themselves and had to endure every monster hitting them one by one, while monsters hit as hard with nearly as much HP as heroes.

IA has resources to reinforce extremely weak troops every 2-3 turns. Heroes can heal themselves 4 HP every action, only have to endure 1 or 2 attacks at a time and even then heroes can donate actions to the one that gets focused by the imperial.

How is that even remotely threatening?

How is it not a tactical downgrade for the imperial compared to the OL to just be able to decide to reinfroce 2-3 miniatures each game instead of selecting and playing OL cards additionally to reinforce monsters every turn?


Edited by DAMaz, 18 August 2014 - 01:39 PM.

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#32 rugal

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:46 PM

Seriously, dude? Are we seriously having this conversation?

 

Okay. FFG is a company which - like many companies - really likes to make money. Actually, way more than most gaming companies.

you're forgettin 1 point : since star wars isn't their own product, it's not so sure they will do the money they want to.

Because if the game is not sold as much as needed, it's a loss of money, and since the contract to use star wars stuff is not unlimited in time, it would have been better to them in term of time to use TI because TI could last longer.

And last, all TI money would go  directly to them, not for star wars



#33 amoshias

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:50 PM

You are totally right. I would MUCH prefer to keep 100% of $5k rather than 5% of a million dollars.

 

Because I don't understand how math works.



#34 cleardave

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 03:24 PM

You are totally right. I would MUCH prefer to keep 100% of $5k rather than 5% of a million dollars.

 

Because I don't understand how math works.

 

Not that I want to take sides in this, but you're basically correct.  Using TI as your driving force to launch this new game would just seem like a waste.

 

Amidst all the other GenCon announcements from FFG pertaining to "new" product, we have certain ubiquitous updates like the Deluxe expansions for Netrunner and Lord of the Rings.  If you're into those games, it's exciting stuff, in the sense that you get a preview of some goodies, but it's not like you were in the dark wondering if your game was going to get some love, because of course it was.

 

Then there were the talks of all the new games coming down the pipeline; Warhammer 40k LCG, XCOM, continuing support for Battlelore...

 

Then finally, you get to what I would think to be what I feel would be the mind-blowers;

X-Wing Wave 6; new faction!

Star Wars Armada: New game with capital ship warfare and awesome painted components

Imperial Assault: Descent 2.5, but with Star Wars

 

These games listed above; Conquest, XCOM, Wave 6, Armada, Imperial Assault, are all going to get people hyped up and excited in various ways.  For the brand new games; XCOM, Armada, Imperial Assault, there's a lot of excitement (and some controversy with the XCOM app) and I feel that all this zeal and buzz comes, not only from intriguing new games and ideas, but from the fact that they are widely recognized brands and themes.

 

If you were along for the ride at GenCon as a casual gamer, and sat in here about this great new Twilight Imperium spin on Descent, you'd probably have some questions;

 

What's Descent?  What's Twilight Imperium?  Then you need to have the setting explained to you, as well as the style of game.  As it is, Imperial Assault was as easy as me reading an announcement update on FFG's page on Friday;

 

My first reaction before I read the article was "is this some kind of Battle of Hoth tactical game?" as I gazed at the small banner with the ATST model from the relatively small screen of my cell phone.

 

Upon further examination, I was elated to see it was Star Wars Descent.  I instantly knew what that would entail in broad strokes.  Further reading and watching demo vids gave me all the juicy comparison notes to get me even more hyped up.

 

Now, if they went the Twilight Imperium route, I would probably just write it off as "generic sci-fi Descent" and move on to drooling over Armada and counting the days until I can get my hands on it.

 

Star Wars gets people excited, especially if it's Star Wars as produced by Fantasy Flight.  I'm not entirely sure if I'll be into this Rebels vs Empire card game they're making; 

http://www.fantasyfl...e vs. Rebellion

 

It seems like just a pasted on theme to some mechanics I understand came from some other game?  I don't know but it's not even on my radar.  I don't think I'm alone either, as seen in this Team Covenant interview with Steve Horvath;

https://www.youtube....2b2kJBe-bmF_0og

 

I can't remember exactly where, but there's a part where the interviewers praise all the good content FFG made with the Star Wars license with the RPG's, X-Wing, the LCG, along with the upcoming Imperial Assault and Armada.  Horvath corrects them, reminding them about Empire vs Rebellion, but there's this awkward beat where you can tell they don't care for it at all, and they quickly move on.

 

So that one game notwithstanding, I don't think I've looked forward to Star Wars gaming this much since the early 90's, playing the X-Wing series all the way through X-Wing Alliance.

 

Side note, before I ramble on too much longer; one of the first games I played from FFG (if not literally the first) was DOOM, the progenitor of the "Descent Engine", which I've always felt was erroneously named, but never brought up because I didn't want to come off like a board game hipster, but I digress.

 

I played DOOM, I loved DOOM, our group played it a lot, including the expansion that was made for it.  Eventually, DOOM gave way to Descent, which I never jumped on, because it felt like "DOOM with swords and sorcery instead of BFG's", so I took a pass.

 

Years and many board games later, I came back to the fold of the DOOM Engine with Descent 2E, having felt positive about the changes made to the system.  I've got everything there is to get for Descent 2E, except Manor and the Skarn pack.  I will make this declaration here and now;  I will get Manor, Skarn, the remaining 2 Hero and Monster Packs.  I will get Imperial Assault and whatever they release for that.  If Descent takes a breather and doesn't release anything for the better part of a year, I won't be upset.  With everything there is to play for Descent currently released, as well as the next 2 hero/monster packs, that's a ton of content.  We play a wide variety of games.  I won't be feeling like Descent got stale on me for a long time out.

 

I get it if you're a hardcore Descent 2E group, and you've played it to death, and that's all your group does.  You don't want it to "die out" because the focus moved to Imperial Assault, but that's the peril of being on the other side of a democratic process, which business tends to be.  You vote with your dollars, and if more votes go into FFG's planning and development process that is Star Wars-related over their own IP's, then they'll (to quote Wu-Tang) get the money; dolla dolla bills, yo.

 

Full disclosure; I've never played anything TI-related, and never really wanted to, on the strength of what I perceive to be a long play-time and its complexity would keep it from my group's table.  And that's really the democratic process for the end-user isn't it?  You can buy a game, but if nobody wants to play it, it's not getting played.  When we brought Firefly to the table, we thought it was terrible and not very interactive and interesting.  The Pirates expansion came out, and that's how we run it.  Now we all enjoy ourselves with it, and we could easily drop it on the table at any point in time.

 

I would play TI if someone else brought it, but I'm not investing my own money into it, knowing full well it'll probably tank.  A sci-fi Descent game, or to be more accurate, a remake of DOOM, but with what my group would feel is "generic sci fi theme pasted on" would never make it to the table.  We're already collectively sharpening our claws over Star Wars Descent though.  We're all imagining the possibilities;

 

Bounty Hunters like Boba, Dengar, and we heard Iggy Pop is in the Core Box, or at least coming soon

The inevitable Rancor model that will come down the line

High hopes for wampas and ewoks to cause mayhem and/or shoot to pieces

 

The potential is just so rich, because the universe is fleshed out, and the overall player familiarity is there.

 

I'm even interested in seeing XCOM roll out.  As a fan of Enemy Unknown/Within, and a veteran of the UFO Defence days back in the '90's, I felt that not having the tactical squad gameplay translated more literally was a downer, but having watched Anton demo the game for Boardgamegeek, we're getting a little intrigued with this timed-play app support thing.  Having only ever tried something similar like Space Team on our iPhones, we're extrapolating all that panicked action and shouting to repelling an alien invasion.  Could be neat.  We'll know later when more extensive reviews from third parties trickle out.

 

So I rambled anyways, time to cut it off.  The short version; it's naive to think it would be a good business decision to make TI-Descent instead of Star Wars Descent.  Sure, there's licensing overhead for Star Wars, but you'll most assuredly sell more units on your Star Wars Descent over a TI Descent.  Maybe the profit isn't as much, but multiplied over that many more unit sales, you'll have more overall revenue coming in as a result.  Let's just try to discuss these things with some civility and not get too rude about it.

 

Emotions run high over all these brands we're all enthused about.  Can't we all just celebrate that we have some more good Star Wars content to look forward to?  It certainly wasn't going to be coming from its creator, and Episode 7 is realistically a crap shoot; could go either way.  FFG can at least provide me with a reliably good Star Wars experience, as they have already done with X-Wing, the LCG, and the RPG.  I look forward to surrendering my cash for Armada and Imperial Assault so I can taste that sweet Star Wars glee while the licensing agreement holds out.


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#35 rugal

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 12:52 PM

I don't say FFG shouldn"t go starwars. Talking only about money is a good choice.

 

I say I'm regreting they did as a player, because I hate so much star wars that you can't even imagine. And as player, I would have loved a FFG personnal universe than bull existing one. That's all



#36 cleardave

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:14 PM

I don't say FFG shouldn"t go starwars. Talking only about money is a good choice.

 

I say I'm regreting they did as a player, because I hate so much star wars that you can't even imagine. And as player, I would have loved a FFG personnal universe than bull existing one. That's all

I'm with you there, in the sense that making an original sci-fi IP to go with the game would let them have more flexibility with how it executes.  Civil War Era Star Wars licensing is going to come with some guidelines, so everything you do has to go through those filters to make it all gel.

 

However, I do love me some Star Wars, and as I've expressed elsewhere, I'm glad to enjoy an era of Star Wars gaming through FFG that is actually of a high quality and quite enjoyable.  Star Wars games have long been pretty thin, especially "event" games like Force Unleashed, which I thought was terrible, and its sequel even worse, somehow.  The FFG era takes me back to being a kid and playing those early Lucasarts games like the X-Wing/TIE Fighter series, Dark Forces, Rebel Assault, etc.



#37 Whitewing

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:16 PM

Fine, if you don't like Star Wars, don't play it.

 

I quite enjoy Star Wars, and I'm glad to see this game.

 

There were other good games in there too cleardave: Rogue Squadron, Jedi Knight series, KOTOR, etc., the older ones weren't the only good ones.


Edited by Whitewing, 19 August 2014 - 05:28 PM.


#38 rugal

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:39 AM

Fine, if you don't like Star Wars, don't play it.

problem's not here.

I only hope this game will not make descent disapear or not be the top game of FFG, that's all.


Edited by rugal, 20 August 2014 - 04:57 AM.


#39 BentoSan

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 08:48 AM

Even if the star wars gamed replaced descent as FFG's biggest board game, they are hardly going to stop producing content for their second most popular board game.



#40 rugal

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 08:50 AM

stop, no. But going slower. I hate to wait






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