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Developing List: Doughnut Bandits


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#1 MajorJuggler

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:21 AM

Just when you thought that we are seeing too many YT-1300 with Gunner + C-3P0, plus Z-95s in the wave 4 meta, we now have an entirely new option for the Rebels for 1 large ship + support. These however, will play much differently.

 

For reference, the dial:

 

zjdYnxc.jpg

 

Here is one squad that takes advantage of the new ship. It revolves around getting higher than the 2 base attack dice for an incredible value.

 

100 points

Leebo + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Push the Limit + Kyle Katarn (52)

4x Bandit Squadron Pilots (48)

 

Leebo can't take any shots at range 1, creating a "doughnut" arc around him, hence the squad name. There are of course many squads that would fit the Archetype of "Doughnut Bandits". Perhaps in time we will see some more specialized squads like the "Boston Creme Bandits" or "Chocolate Doughnut Bandits".

 

General strategies and rationale for this particular variation:

  • Bandits fly cover to help block enemy ships from getting at range 1 of Leebo.
  • Z-95s are very cost efficient, and getting 4 of them really helps with the squad's overall firepower, especially coupled with a 4-dice Heavy Laser Cannon that will ideally be shooting with focus + Target Lock every round.
  • Leebo is the ideal pilot for this setup, as the squad points with 4 Z-95's plus Kyle leave the Doughnut Outrider squad at exactly 100 points. Leebo's defensive ability is the YT-2400 version of Chewbacca, and should prove quite effective.
  • Leebo must do a green maneuver every round for maximum efficiency (free focus token from Kyle), but can barrel roll out of the way to reposition if needed. Revealing a green maneuver to clear a stress token, and then using Push the Limit gives the following options:
  1. 2 focus tokens + Target Lock
  2. 2 focus tokens + Barrel Roll
  3. 1 focus token + Target Lock + Barrel Roll
  • The only red on the dial is the K-turn, so even if stressed, you can still perform whatever maneuver you want, if you are willing to sacrifice your action for better positioning.
  • Because you gain a free focus token after removing a stress token, you will want to Push the Limit the turn before the first round of exchanging fire, so you can get the extra focus token on the first dice rolling round.

 

leebo.png

 

outrider.png  heavy-laser-cannon.png

 

kyle-katarn.png  PushTheLimit.png


Edited by MajorJuggler, 14 August 2014 - 11:32 AM.

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#2 nikk whyte

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:31 AM

If you could squeeze wingman into a few ships here you could have another free focus.

Maybe drop one bandit, up the remaining 3 to talas, and give them some goodies?

You'd need to run up against a stress-inducing list to make full use of it, but it could happen, especially the way FFG seems to be weaponizing stress now.

Edited by nikk whyte, 14 August 2014 - 11:32 AM.

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Current fleet:
Rebel: x-wing, y-wing, HWK-290, yt-1300, e-wing, z-95

Imperial: 2 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, tie phantom, tie advanced, firespray


#3 TheDarkPilot

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:33 AM

Thats awesome i will love all these builds with HLC.
Stay in range 1 with the Phantom and poof there goes the Outrider with not even shooting at ya... whoohooo! :)


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#4 TheGreedyMerchant

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:40 PM

I like the build you've posted. Here is a different take on it with Dash. I think yours is probably better due to the action economy. I like the idea of using the terrain as an advantage though and I think "Rendar's Raiders" has a nice ring to it.

 

http://geordanr.gith...1:;64:-1:-1:-1:


Edited by TheGreedyMerchant, 14 August 2014 - 12:41 PM.


#5 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:11 PM

Chocolate Doughnut Bandits?  Does that one use Lando crew?

 

Boston Creme Bandits?  Han crew?



#6 MajorJuggler

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:20 PM

I like the build you've posted. Here is a different take on it with Dash. I think yours is probably better due to the action economy. I like the idea of using the terrain as an advantage though and I think "Rendar's Raiders" has a nice ring to it.

 

http://geordanr.gith...1:;64:-1:-1:-1:

 

For Dash, I think I would take the base build here and add Engine Upgrade, putting him at 58 points. You could fill out the remaining 42 points with something like 1 bandit + 2 Prototypes w/ refit. 2 X-wings also works at 42 points, but 3 ships is probably better than the 2 X's.



#7 Introverdant

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:29 PM

At a mere PS3, it is going to be very easy for a lot of ships to consistently sneak into range 1 of Leebo.

Accordingly, I think that the Outrider + HLC setup is suboptimal for him.

 

 

I also think that Determination is probably the best bet for his EPT slot. Combined with his pilot ability, you can potentially get a lot of free hull out of that 1 point.



#8 MajorJuggler

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:37 PM

At a mere PS3, it is going to be very easy for a lot of ships to consistently sneak into range 1 of Leebo.

Accordingly, I think that the Outrider + HLC setup is suboptimal for him.

 

 

I also think that Determination is probably the best bet for his EPT slot. Combined with his pilot ability, you can potentially get a lot of free hull out of that 1 point.

 

Leebo is PS5.

 

Also, that's Determination + Leebo is an interesting combination that might need a FAQ.

 

  • Determination: When you are dealt a faceup Damage card with the Pilot trait, discard it immediately without resolving its effect.
  • Leebo: When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve and discard the other.

So, for one thing, I don't know that Leebo's pilot ability can trigger on the 2nd card, because the 2nd card is not being "dealt" to you, the key word there is "draw", and optionally resolve.

 

Secondly, there are two "immediately" words. Which happens first?

  • If Determination, then as normal, the card goes away.
  • If Leebo, then do you draw the 2nd card, discard the first, and then have to apply the 2nd?

Weirdness. FAQ needed.


Edited by MajorJuggler, 14 August 2014 - 01:38 PM.

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#9 TheGreedyMerchant

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:41 PM

 

I like the build you've posted. Here is a different take on it with Dash. I think yours is probably better due to the action economy. I like the idea of using the terrain as an advantage though and I think "Rendar's Raiders" has a nice ring to it.

 

http://geordanr.gith...1:;64:-1:-1:-1:

 

For Dash, I think I would take the base build here and add Engine Upgrade, putting him at 58 points. You could fill out the remaining 42 points with something like 1 bandit + 2 Prototypes w/ refit. 2 X-wings also works at 42 points, but 3 ships is probably better than the 2 X's.

 

I played around with using experimental interface, leebo crew and predator. I know that its risky but you use it to get out of those situations where they close on you hard. The only problem is I don't know what to use the last five points for (or 8 if you take bandits over talas)

 

http://geordanr.gith...:;65:-1:-1:-1:.

 

 

Regarding Leebo, couldn't you look at the crit, then decide to use determination (if possible) and not trigger Leebo's ability, or pull two crits with leebo's ability and then choose the pilot one and discard it with determination and throw away the second one? It seems to straightforward to me but I might be oversimplifying or not understanding the mechanic.


Edited by TheGreedyMerchant, 14 August 2014 - 01:47 PM.


#10 Dagonet

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:44 PM

I'm trying to change things in your list without affecting its handling but I really can't easily. Changing Kyle for Han is suboptimal choice, so is Chewie.

The only thing I can think of is dropping one bandit, for two Tala's and Airen Cracken with three points for an upgrade and an action in combat to trigger the PTL off of. That would give a bit more flexibility in Target Locks, but it is a bit more fragile when Airen bites it.

#11 Introverdant

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:54 PM

I agree.

 

It's quite solid from a squadbuilding standpoint.

 

As far as actually flying it goes, it may prove vulnerable to both blocking strategies and to higher PS fighters.

Echo + Mini-swarm could give it a lot of trouble.



#12 MajorJuggler

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:14 PM

Regarding Leebo, couldn't you look at the crit, then decide to use determination (if possible) and not trigger Leebo's ability, or pull two crits with leebo's ability and then choose the pilot one and discard it with determination and throw away the second one? It seems to straightforward to me but I might be oversimplifying or not understanding the mechanic.

 

  1. Leebo's ability is not optional, there is no "may" in the description. Regardless of how Determination plays out, I think you have to draw the 2nd card no matter what. Even if you ignore the effect or discard the first card, that should not exclude you from having to draw a 2nd card.
  2. When the 2nd card is drawn, the "dealt" keyword is not used, so it is not immediately apparent that Determination could trigger on the 2nd card without a FAQ entry.
  3. Looking closer, Leebo's ability does not state immediately, so I think that Determination triggers before the 2nd card is drawn?

So the more I think about this, I think the process is:

  • Deal faceup card: immediately trigger Determination.
  • If it is a Pilot type crit, then Determination says to discard it immediately.
  • Now draw a 2nd card. Determination cannot trigger.
  • Choose which card to resolve. If the first card was already discarded, then I think you can choose to "resolve" that card by simply leaving it in the discard pile. Otherwise, you have to choose which of the 2 critical effects to resolve, even if the 2nd is of the pilot type.

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#13 Introverdant

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:16 PM

Pesky wording.



#14 TheGreedyMerchant

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:34 PM

Yes yes it is. I will patiently (I am now known for my patience) wait for the FAQ. 

Regarding Leebo, couldn't you look at the crit, then decide to use determination (if possible) and not trigger Leebo's ability, or pull two crits with leebo's ability and then choose the pilot one and discard it with determination and throw away the second one? It seems to straightforward to me but I might be oversimplifying or not understanding the mechanic.

 

My thought process for this was along the lines of Fett and Navigator because there is no timing restriction on that particular interaction. I thought it might be the same for this but after looking at it again it doesn't seem so.


Edited by TheGreedyMerchant, 14 August 2014 - 02:34 PM.


#15 quasistellar

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:41 PM

 

Regarding Leebo, couldn't you look at the crit, then decide to use determination (if possible) and not trigger Leebo's ability, or pull two crits with leebo's ability and then choose the pilot one and discard it with determination and throw away the second one? It seems to straightforward to me but I might be oversimplifying or not understanding the mechanic.

 

  1. Leebo's ability is not optional, there is no "may" in the description. Regardless of how Determination plays out, I think you have to draw the 2nd card no matter what. Even if you ignore the effect or discard the first card, that should not exclude you from having to draw a 2nd card.
  2. When the 2nd card is drawn, the "dealt" keyword is not used, so it is not immediately apparent that Determination could trigger on the 2nd card without a FAQ entry.
  3. Looking closer, Leebo's ability does not state immediately, so I think that Determination triggers before the 2nd card is drawn?

So the more I think about this, I think the process is:

  • Deal faceup card: immediately trigger Determination.
  • If it is a Pilot type crit, then Determination says to discard it immediately.
  • Now draw a 2nd card. Determination cannot trigger.
  • Choose which card to resolve. If the first card was already discarded, then I think you can choose to "resolve" that card by simply leaving it in the discard pile. Otherwise, you have to choose which of the 2 critical effects to resolve, even if the 2nd is of the pilot type.

 

 

I'd be willing to be that FFG will FAQ the the words "dealt" and "draw" to be equivalent.  Is there any precedent already in place to suggest that they'll view being "dealt" a card and "drawing" a card to be different?  I'm honestly curious, as I don't recall anything off the top of my head.



#16 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 03:55 PM

Drivethrough Doughnut Bandits?  Uses Dash crew?


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#17 Glentopher

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 03:59 PM

I'd be willing to be that FFG will FAQ the the words "dealt" and "draw" to be equivalent.  Is there any precedent already in place to suggest that they'll view being "dealt" a card and "drawing" a card to be different?  I'm honestly curious, as I don't recall anything off the top of my head.

 

 

Wouldn't you say that dealt was actually receiving the card on the pilot?

 

Drawing is just looking at it it. So you Draw two cards, "deal" yourself one, and discard the other. So you deliberately pick the pilot one to deal to yourself?


Scum: 1 Firespray, 1 HWK, 2 Y-Wing's, 4 Z-95's




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