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Ditching classes.


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#61 bradknowles

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:42 PM

That’s what the GM shield is for.

His love of "everything Star Wars" doesn't really enter into the realm of peripheral "utility items", in this case GM screens, Card Packs, etc.

When I run I'll just make my own like I always do. I've yet to find a GM screen that has the exact info I want.


Okay, well there is a free PDF file that was created by one of the forum members and it has everything that’s on the GM shield plus some extra stuff. It runs to something like six or seven pages if you print it out, and it’s all tables and stuff.

My point is that you’re playing this game … in a sub-optimal fashion … if you’re spending that much time flipping through the books and looking at standard tables like how to spend Advantages.

Unless stated otherwise, these are just my personal opinions about how I feel things should work.  Even if I quote chapter and verse of a particular rulebook, only the part that's quoted is likely to actually be official.  Each GM will have to decide for themselves what rules they will use and which ones they won't, and how they will interpret the rules they do use.  That is their right -- and their responsibility.

"A FFG Star Wars Index" by Aahzmandius_Karrde: <http://community.fan...ar-wars-index/> | Github project at <https://github.com/k...rde/ffg_swrpg/>

"Dice Probability Generator" by Litheon: http://community.fan...lity-generator/


#62 evileeyore

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 11:42 AM

My point is that you’re playing this game … in a sub-optimal fashion … if you’re spending that much time flipping through the books and looking at standard tables like how to spend Advantages.

Yeah, I know.

When I take the reigns and run (sounding like that'll in about a month) I'll be making handouts and such so the books can leave the damn table.

#63 Osprey

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:37 AM

Well after reading all of the posts, all I can say is that although this is fantasy in real life there are trees for careers, i have just retire from the Air Force after 23 years. I had to follow basically a real life skill tree that can get complicated to the uninitiated but in simplified form. I was a trainee that new what I wanted to do and they were just getting me knowledgeable, then apprentice (I couldn't do any work without at least a journeyman looking over my shoulder), Journeyman, craftsman, and master craftsman. These positions went with time in job and experience plus classes required. It took me over 12 years to become a craftsman. Now that is in mechanic. Kids say I'm gonna grow up to be a surgion, not to be a smuggler. A good example is in the first aid that we in the Air Force learn. When  came in it was basic first aid for trauma. Then we started learning about this nasal tube on the computer to help a victim breath easier. Well my thought on this was we are not EMTs and we don't have practical training in using this thing so stay away from me as i would rather be dead than have my brains scrambled. So there is a point to having classes and there is a definate difference between a Dr and a criminal smuggler but there are things that you need to learn in both that should take years. So with that being said take these facts into consideration before considering spacing the classes. Like i said this is fantasy but there is always a little realism to make it fun.



#64 Daeglan

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:16 AM

Part of the problem with removing the classes is that if you look at the specialty trees and the way they are put together. There is a reason they did things the way they did. there is a balance to the classes and specialties. they are also making character choose. If everyone can take every ability whenever they want you kind of ruin people having niches where they matter. 

 

Look at the movies. all the main characters were different and complementary. They all mattered. removing classes leads to the potential of.removing that. You would have to rejigger all of the costs for things to try and get that back. 



#65 evileeyore

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:38 AM

Part of the problem with removing the classes is that if you look at the specialty trees and the way they are put together. There is a reason they did things the way they did. there is a balance to the classes and specialties.

People Keep saying that. I don't see balance in it, I see someone saying "Hey these trees that go straight are boring, let's mix it up a bit".

For Fringer to get to Dedication they have to spend 115 EXp.
For Scout it's 100 EXP.
Trader spends 125 EXP.

Is that balance?

Now explain why it will be easier for a Scoundrel to get their Smuggler special Base Ability than the 10pt Talent Convincing Demeanor from their own tree.

It should never be easier to get an end cap ability than a "second rank" ability.


 

If everyone can take every ability whenever they want you kind of ruin people having niches where they matter.

No you don't. If "everyone" wants certain Talents, they will build to get them. If everyone wants to be Ace Pilots, they will all play Ace Pilots. Removing Classes won't change this.
 

Look at the movies. all the main characters were different and complementary. They all mattered. removing classes leads to the potential of.removing that.

The erroneous battlecry of "class lovers" everywhere.

I've been playing classless rpgs for 30 years, trust me, every character will do their own thing, just as they do in rpgs where there are Classes.

#66 Daeglan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:49 AM

Balance is more than how many XP it takes to get to dedication. 

No one is saying you can't mix and match abilities. Just like in real life. but doing so costs you. Just like in real life. The point of the classes in this game is partially grouping likely abilities together. And making players make choices. Do they want to focus and be bad ass at one thing. Or do they want to spread out and be ok at a lot of things. 

If you take out the classes you are going to have to rebalance all of the costs and are going to make a ton of work. As for example some very potent abilities are put where they are in trees so as to make getting those abilities expensive. If you are going to take out classes in the system it might behove you to know why they built the trees the way they did first. 



#67 evileeyore

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 01:02 AM

If you are going to take out classes in the system it might behove you to know why they built the trees the way they did first.

Agreed.

However I doubt we'll ever see any such explanation, and I'm sure we won't see it in the next month... which is when I'll be starting my game and plan to have to finished making my house rules.

#68 Daeglan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 01:28 AM

There are more ways than waiting for someone else to tell you. Mostly it involves looking closely at the trees and asking yourself. Why from a game standpoint did they do what they did. They did things for a reason. You don't have to have someone tell you what the reason is to figure it out. You just have to look closely and think like a game designer. If you are going to try and make the game classless you need to have that ability. 

If you can't do that you will likely end up with a mess. 


Edited by Daeglan, 24 August 2014 - 01:29 AM.


#69 Daeglan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 01:31 AM

And you can find explanations for some things. Like the dice mechanic. Which is on the gaming security agency blog. a post was made by Jay Little explaining it. The Order66 Podcast has several episodes with devs on it where they discuss things. 



#70 evileeyore

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 09:26 AM

Mostly it involves looking closely at the trees and asking yourself.

I did. I can find no good reason for what they did with the Scoundrel and Slicer Trees. When those specs will be able to get their Career Signature Abilities easier and cheaper than Tier 2 10 EXP Talents in their own Trees....

It tells me the designers didn't have a cohesive vision.

Now... it's just those two trees which hit me in the "What Were They Smoking?" spot. The other trees I can accept in the vein of "They want these Talents purchased in this rough order" nonsense.*



* Which I still dislike and would be enough on it's own to convince me to drop Careers after character creation. Scoundrel and Slicer are just the "WTF?" icing on the "Make It Classlees" cake.

 

They did things for a reason.

In some cases it really does look like "Hey, we haven't completely buggreed a Spec Tree with terrible nonsense, lets do that here".

You'll also notice that they never did it again, aside from the cut-and-paste Slicer spec in AoR.
 

You don't have to have someone tell you what the reason is to figure it out.

No... but if you want to know what their reason is you do.


Any pair of shmucks can come along and blather on how "they were smoking the crack" or "you just don't understand their BRILLIANCE! You should play by the rules until you love it like we do!1111!".

 

The Order66 Podcast has several episodes with devs on it where they discuss things.

I'll have to try to givr them a listen.

Any chance the pods have been transcribed anywhere? I have a hard time listening to people talk with out a face to engage...

#71 Daeglan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:49 AM

Transcribed? No. But they are on Justin TV I believe.

#72 Hedgehobbit

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:59 PM

 

Do they want to focus and be bad ass at one thing. Or do they want to spread out and be ok at a lot of things. 

 

I haven't seen it personally, but I often hear posters on these and other forums talk about hyper-specialized characters ruining the fun of the game. Yet the core game design actually punishes characters for not specializing. 

 

* Which I still dislike and would be enough on it's own to convince me to drop Careers after character creation. Scoundrel and Slicer are just the "WTF?" icing on the "Make It Classlees" cake.

 

You should make a classless version and post it. I'd be interested in seeing it. 



#73 evileeyore

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:38 PM

You should make a classless version and post it. I'd be interested in seeing it.

I'm working on my houserules. I'll be posting them before I run my game (hopefully several weeks prior) to get the forum to weigh in.

I have no doubt people in here have hit walls in the rules in areas I haven't and have different workarounds.




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