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Retirement from the Guard


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#61 Robin Graves

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 02:31 PM

Loyal worlds are supposed to make supplies available to any guard regiments that come to their world. But some worlds don't see it that way*, but will sell their stuff to the guard. The guard will usualy just pay them for what they need, write down the cost and then the administratum increases that world's taxes. The munitorium manual even advises using a local go between and local currency.

 

* If a world flat out refuses to supply guard regiments it is considered hostile and may be freely engaged.



#62 ranoncles

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 03:16 AM

 

I think you misunderstood my point. I agree that the Imperium is not going to go out of its way to get guardsmen back to their home planet. Too costly. But it is not just going to dump them after their service has ended. Because that would be stupid and would lead to banditry as history clearly showes. 

 

The fluff suggests that they are retired as colonists much like the roman legionnairs which indeed makes the most sense.

 

 

As to money, I defy anyone to find an example of an army without money of some kind....Wherever a community arises (such like large bodies of troops), there will be a brisk trade in (illegal) goods. And that will require either money or trade in goods. Which means military supplies which is why armies prefer to pay their men instead of having vital ammunition or parts being traded....

And it won't be tau or Orks providing such luxury goods...it will be human camp followers. Even the red army paid its soldiers during WWII.

 

Seriously, do you people ever read a book about soldiers? Watch a movie? Maybe about prisoners of war? Or even just prisoners in a prison. There always will be trade because people want luxeries, even if that just means a bar of soap and some more ciggies...

 

A) I'm from a military family. B)I've lived it (not on WW2/1 scale, but still.) C) I've read eight of the forgotten voices books.

Admittedly, I was definitely never a POW, so I can't speak for that, but actively serving men usually trade in goods. (I never smoked, so if I somehow got my hand on a pack, I'd trade it away for something.) I can only think of one or two times when I payed money, and that was the official selling of certain items by the quartermaster.

 

 

I agree that out on patrol/in the boonies there might be very little use for money while actual goods provide immediate ROI.

 

But once back in camp etc., nobody is going to lug their barter goods around....money is much easier. And sometimes a deal with barter can't be made but money is always good....Because the barter you have depends largely on what is available. Let's say an armoured regiment wants to buy ciggies from an infantry regiment. Why would the infantry regiment be interested in tank engine parts or tank ammo?

 

Operation petticoat has a good scene in which the crew of the pink submarine run an illegal casino to acquire the parts they need....they offer chips/money in return....



#63 ranoncles

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 03:31 AM


As for the camp followers - where would they get their goods from, and what use could they possibly have for some locally minted currency? Assuming a lack of established supply lines (one of the reasons for the lasgun being so popular .. no ammo imports needed!), there won't be a lot of goods they could offer the troops. Sure, many of them would offer services, and others might wander off to hunt food, but even then a bunch of coins you can only pay for on a couple specific worlds seems like a questionable form of payment.

 

 

 

Your historical knowledge here is lacking, Lynata. Or just your knowledge of human nature ;) .

 

Camp followers/merchants/suttlers always have goods to sell, even when the actual army is starving. It's their usp.

A good example would be the Peninsular campaign of 1807-1814. Suttlers provided a very necessary service and somehow always managed to find goods to sell. Even the French suttlers belonging to Massena's army before the lines of Torres Vedras when they were cut off from Spain.

 

It would take a very barren world with no local settlements or army provided supplies to let these shrewd merchants run out goods to sell. And even then, I'd expect them to have backroom deals with corrupt Munitorium staff to get some goods to sell...

 

Which brings me back to historical references (yes, I know, I keep mentioning this). You read about soldiers hiding money or valuables in their shoes/uniforms/shakos/belts as emergency funds. Not about them hiding a few extra ration packs or a live chicken. Because money and baubles are portable and usually far more valuable for their weight than typical barter goods....



#64 Drath

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 09:02 AM

 

 

 


 


But once back in camp etc., nobody is going to lug their barter goods around....money is much easier. And sometimes a deal with barter can't be made but money is always good....Because the barter you have depends largely on what is available. Let's say an armoured regiment wants to buy ciggies from an infantry regiment. Why would the infantry regiment be interested in tank engine parts or tank ammo?

 

Operation petticoat has a good scene in which the crew of the pink submarine run an illegal casino to acquire the parts they need....they offer chips/money in return....

 

It's true, I concede to your point here. It is very true about the universal value of money, but you're also wrong in one point. 'Why would they need tank engine parts or tank ammo?'. They wouldn't, but that's not what you'd trade. Almost any regiment has something another would want. For example, the infantry regiment has whisky rations, but are subsisting on corpse starch and leaves. The armoured regiment really crave a good sip of liquid fire, but don't have any. What they do have are rations nobles such as they would expect.

See where I'm going with this?

(I reckon we've argued to a standstill.)


Edited by Drath, 16 October 2014 - 09:03 AM.

'Cynic' Brooker of the Saurian Survivors.

Corvo, Chief Of Arms for the royal Emperors ship 'Glorious Might'.

And, GM of all the above.


#65 venkelos

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 12:48 PM

 


As for the camp followers - where would they get their goods from, and what use could they possibly have for some locally minted currency? Assuming a lack of established supply lines (one of the reasons for the lasgun being so popular .. no ammo imports needed!), there won't be a lot of goods they could offer the troops. Sure, many of them would offer services, and others might wander off to hunt food, but even then a bunch of coins you can only pay for on a couple specific worlds seems like a questionable form of payment.

 

 

 

Your historical knowledge here is lacking, Lynata. Or just your knowledge of human nature ;) .

 

Camp followers/merchants/suttlers always have goods to sell, even when the actual army is starving. It's their usp.

A good example would be the Peninsular campaign of 1807-1814. Suttlers provided a very necessary service and somehow always managed to find goods to sell. Even the French suttlers belonging to Massena's army before the lines of Torres Vedras when they were cut off from Spain.

 

It would take a very barren world with no local settlements or army provided supplies to let these shrewd merchants run out goods to sell. And even then, I'd expect them to have backroom deals with corrupt Munitorium staff to get some goods to sell...

 

Which brings me back to historical references (yes, I know, I keep mentioning this). You read about soldiers hiding money or valuables in their shoes/uniforms/shakos/belts as emergency funds. Not about them hiding a few extra ration packs or a live chicken. Because money and baubles are portable and usually far more valuable for their weight than typical barter goods....

 

I'd think when Americans go to war against other Humans, this makes more sense than when the Guard shows up to reclaim a world taken by Orks, Nids, or some other "wreck everything!" army. By the time the IG get alerted to a problem, mobilized, warp travel, get lost twice, get hurdled a few decades the wrong way through time (because Tzeentch is just a tool that way ;) ), and then finally arrive, deploy, and whatnot, there aren't usually Human settlements left. Sending your people to go trade with that Ork camp is heresy.

 

Also, and this sort of gets back, a bit, to the retirement bit, in a roundabout way, if I'm an Allied soldier in Nazi Germany circa 1944, it might do me some good to squirrel away some extra money; when I get home, and I hopefully still plan to, I can spend it, or, if it's German money, exchange it Deutschmarks to Dollars. If I'm a Catachan 88th on Kulth, I'm probably never leaving Kulth, and Kulth is at least a world with people on it. If I were deployed to fight on an Ork-held world, again there will be no shops to visit, no towns to barter with, or pay for goods, and possibly no leaving, even if we win; someone has to stay there, in case those Ork spores sprout a decade or three down the line.

 

This can be one of those scenarios where real-life comparisons can fall through. Orks don't have money (they have teef), and even if you shot a bunch of Orks, and your Colonel said "harvest the monsters' teeth, and we'll use them to barter with the more sympathetic tribes," he'd immediately be shot by the Commissar for heresy, and that assumes Orks have anything you still want. So many IG engagements seem, at least to me, to be more from the perspective of "IG goes to an already infested hole, being now the only Loyalist Humans on the planet, and have to wreck everything to get it back for the Emperor," rather than "the IG were sitting there, and suddenly had to repel the Greenskins, when they came to invade." That's more PDF, in my mind, while Guardsmen are more firefighters, sent to an existing problem to fix it. It seems less likely to find loyal Humans there, who can be of assistance, and such,

 

And spending money in camp? I would certainly not say that Quartermasters can't be bribed with money for better stuff, even if that stuff isn't theirs, but where is the Quartermaster spending it? He might never be leaving, either, or just to be deployed to the next engagement zone. If you aren't in a place with a strong civilian population (in which case what are the menacing Orks or Nids actually doing?), I don't see as many opportunities to squander, err spend any money, be it on hard liquor, soft company, or whatever your particular itch/fix is. Again, I've never served, so the life of an active soldier in a foreign place, Earth or 40K, is not something I'm familiar with, but what seems to work in this world, with actual people, sympathetic populations, and a certainty that you CAN go home, someday, doesn't as well pan in a place filled with DIFFERENT alien nightmares, total devastation, and a hierarchy above you that will shoot you for saluting wrong.


Edited by venkelos, 16 October 2014 - 12:50 PM.

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#66 Drath

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 12:53 PM

 

And spending money in camp? I would certainly not say that Quartermasters can't be bribed with money for better stuff, even if that stuff isn't theirs, but where is the Quartermaster spending it? He might never be leaving, either, or just to be deployed to the next engagement zone. If you aren't in a place with a strong civilian population (in which case what are the menacing Orks or Nids actually doing?), I don't see as many opportunities to squander, err spend any money, be it on hard liquor, soft company, or whatever your particular itch/fix is. Again, I've never served, so the life of an active soldier in a foreign place, Earth or 40K, is not something I'm familiar with, but what seems to work in this world, with actual people, sympathetic populations, and a certainty that you CAN go home, someday, doesn't as well pan in a place filled with DIFFERENT alien nightmares, total devastation, and a hierarchy above you that will shoot you for saluting wrong.

 

The quartermaster I mentoined sold official items, and the money went back to the army or government or something I guess. It wasn't a 'bribe' thing. He might do something similar with the Munitorum, or maybe he sends it home to his family or something. But as you said this 'doesn't as well pan in a place filled with DIFFERENT alien nightmares, total devastation, and a hierarchy above you that will shoot you for saluting wrong.'


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Corvo, Chief Of Arms for the royal Emperors ship 'Glorious Might'.

And, GM of all the above.


#67 Lynata

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 03:37 PM

Camp followers/merchants/suttlers moving across an unpolluted world populated with other humans producing compatible goods and willing to part with them always have goods to sell, even when the actual army is starving. 

 

Fixed that statement for you. ;)

 

I think I've already alluded to it earlier, but if those goods you want to trade cannot be procured, they won't be available for sale! Everything has to come from somewhere, and the more devastating a war becomes, the less likely a sutler will be able to acquire stuff from settlements in the area the regiment is passing through.

 

And this is all assuming that the soldiers won't simply loot whatever they need (as was the case at least during the invasion of Fenris, as per codex fluff). Apparently, during the Thirty Years War, camp merchants were made largely redundant by the armies "supplying themselves", if you know what I mean.


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#68 ranoncles

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 03:57 AM

This is in the order of a good argument. If it seems too abrasive or just plain boring, please say so and we can go on to the next topic.

 

 

I agree with all that say that there might not be any (sympathetic) human settlements on many war fronts. Or that what passes for money in one sector might not be valuable in another.

 

Still, I'd argue strongly that merchants will find a way to make a buck and will provide goods (of any kind soldiers will want). This is depicted in too many books/films etc. set in so many different historical periods to ignore IMO.

 

And i suspect this will also apply to armies fighting nasty aliens. In starship troopers, Rico and his roughnecks are given a party with booze, a ball and even a violin. Probably none of this was army issue....

 

So if the departemento munitorium doesn't provide and neither does the Emperor, there will be an enterprising merchant who will. Maybe even a rogue trader who will arrange to supply independent suttlers or have his own organisation which follows IG forces around and sells wanted items. Not too far fetched IMO....

 

As to money and relative worth, that would be handled just like different currencies are in our time. You could even come up with a system in which for example the Falconi Nitwits guardsmen sign I.O.U.'s to the suttlers on planet Nogoodshere which are then sold to a rogue trader or free captain/shipping company and these are subsequently paid off by their relatives on the planet of Falconi.....

 

 

I never actually served but I was called up for conscription back in 1986 and volunteered for the logistics branch in the Dutch army because I thought it might help with a later career in business unlike running around toting an assault rifle. I got the first educational course books etc. which included a bit about black market dealings. Don't know if the Dutch army was particularly prone to this or not but it was considered important enough to mention that soldiers will always try to make their lives a little more pleasant, apparently by acquiring stuff the army didn't consider good for them ;) .

 

As I was accepted at my university later that summer, I was given a deferement which lasted long enough for conscription to be abolished so I never became a second lieutenant in the logistics branch....but I still have a soft spot for those black marketeers the army was so worried about..... :D


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#69 Drath

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 09:24 AM

 

 

 

I never actually served but I was called up for conscription back in 1986 and volunteered for the logistics branch in the Dutch army because I thought it might help with a later career in business unlike running around toting an assault rifle. I got the first educational course books etc. which included a bit about black market dealings. Don't know if the Dutch army was particularly prone to this or not but it was considered important enough to mention that soldiers will always try to make their lives a little more pleasant, apparently by acquiring stuff the army didn't consider good for them ;) .

 

As I was accepted at my university later that summer, I was given a deferement which lasted long enough for conscription to be abolished so I never became a second lieutenant in the logistics branch....but I still have a soft spot for those black marketeers the army was so worried about..... :D

I did Combat Medic work mostly (Within my fireteam of course), alongside the aforementioned rifle toting gooning. Helps with becoming a doctor, plus it's a family tradition, I had to do something. Dad did logistics after he did his knee in. In my teenage years I got all sorts of clothing etc that he mysteriously happened to make its way into his attic, including a pair of Russian gloves that happened to find their way into his kitbag one winter. Also, I'm not bored so far. And yeah, it does take place in most armies I should expect, they're still humans who want to live fairly comfortably, or have something to ease their lives a little bit.


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'Cynic' Brooker of the Saurian Survivors.

Corvo, Chief Of Arms for the royal Emperors ship 'Glorious Might'.

And, GM of all the above.





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