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Retirement from the Guard


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#41 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:16 PM

Oh, of course. You're right.



#42 Robin Graves

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:29 PM

Or turn them into servitors, and when they start falling apart, have them recycled into foodstufs! eewwww.

 

Or even worse

you are a guardsman, you fight, you survive, you get elite, you get decorated, you get retirement...

and THEN an inquisitor comes along, asks you to become his acolyte and tells you to step in the middle of that glowing octogram surounded by eigt black candles made from human wax...


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#43 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:04 PM

A properly indoctrinated Guardsmen would probably think being made into chow and tools would be a good death. He's conrinuing to serve his comrades and the Emperor instead of being a burden,



#44 Lynata

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:33 PM

Or turn them into servitors, and when they start falling apart, have them recycled into foodstufs! eewwww.

 

Or even worse

you are a guardsman, you fight, you survive, you get elite, you get decorated, you get retirement...

and THEN an inquisitor comes along, asks you to become his acolyte and tells you to step in the middle of that glowing octogram surounded by eigt black candles made from human wax...

 

Reminded me of an oooold webcomic ...

 

040809.jpg


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#45 Visitor Q

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:28 AM

Or even worse:
 
In the  old epic (space marine) rulebook from the Mausoleum description:
" For the vast bulk of citizens of the imperium death is not the end of their service to the emperor.
Thye are quickly forgotten by everyone, but the record keepers of the administratum, and
their bodies are recycled into foodstuffs."
 
Soylent green is made of gu-gu-guardsmen!
 
And people wonder why i'd rather join chaos...

Chaos of course don't wait till your dead before they start chowing down on your kidneys.

#46 Robin Graves

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:50 PM

 

Or even worse:
 
In the  old epic (space marine) rulebook from the Mausoleum description:
" For the vast bulk of citizens of the imperium death is not the end of their service to the emperor.
Thye are quickly forgotten by everyone, but the record keepers of the administratum, and
their bodies are recycled into foodstuffs."
 
Soylent green is made of gu-gu-guardsmen!
 
And people wonder why i'd rather join chaos...

Chaos of course don't wait till your dead before they start chowing down on your kidneys.

 

 

And 'nids, and Kroot, and Newcron flayed ones. damit guys! stop eating us!

Atleast when a Kroot eats you it means you have good genes, so it's actualy a compliment. ;)



#47 Misha

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 11:43 PM

 

 

Or even worse:
 
In the  old epic (space marine) rulebook from the Mausoleum description:
" For the vast bulk of citizens of the imperium death is not the end of their service to the emperor.
Thye are quickly forgotten by everyone, but the record keepers of the administratum, and
their bodies are recycled into foodstuffs."
 
Soylent green is made of gu-gu-guardsmen!
 
And people wonder why i'd rather join chaos...

Chaos of course don't wait till your dead before they start chowing down on your kidneys.

 

 

And 'nids, and Kroot, and Newcron flayed ones. damit guys! stop eating us!

Atleast when a Kroot eats you it means you have good genes, so it's actualy a compliment. ;)

 

 

Nice to know... nice to know...



#48 Ghaundan

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 02:32 AM

Well, I agree with alot of people here. Everyone fights until they die does sound grim derp. It's dark and horrendous just for the sake of it,  but it doesn't make much sense. Even in the 40k universe.

First off though, you have to define what you mean by retire. A military pension with benefits, or simply discharged from service? The latter probably happens alot, the former rather rare. And it will vary alot, Kriegers? They'd probably never retire if they could help it, but for a bog standard regiment? His ordeals are over, he's done his duty to the emperor and now he gets to live out the rest of his life in peace....or hard labour in a salt mine because he's witnessed chaotic things he shouldn't have.

The majority will die in service, such is the nature of war in warhammer 40k. Even if it's not in combat, some will die of old age! Most likely the oldsters are "reduced" to camp work. Wars last for generations, some children are born into the guard and live out their lives in war, knowing nothing else. But, if a planet is conquered the remaining guardsmen are most likey tasked with populating the new planet. Becoming a sort of insurance to the imperium that there are combat ready loyalists on the planet, and the high ranking officers are most likely given positions of power.

But it's a matter of circumstance if they get to retire like that, if the regiments are relatively full strenght or can be joined to form full strenght regiments and there's a war nearby they'll most likely be shipped to the next war. Because the navy does have to come and pick up all the valuable war equipment anyway. If there's an armoured regiment on the planet those tanks won't be left behind, most likely.

As with most things in 40k, make it your own ;)


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#49 Misha

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:09 PM

I find it that its really hard to retire if most guardsmen die in about five hours of actual service. Some only three minutes.

 

Someone said that the Imperial Guardsman were better than the PDF. While on some planets thats true, on many others its not. Some planets have Arbites-standard PDF, others have teenagers with pitchforks. So it really depends on which planet you are on. While it does state that the best, fittest men are supposed to join the guard many cunning politicos can easily slip around that, getting their best as their bodyguards while sending out lesser men to certain death in the guard.


Edited by Misha, 08 October 2014 - 08:16 PM.

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#50 Robin Graves

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 03:00 PM

Teenagers with pitchforks, LOL!

 

Still i'd rather spend my life in the PDF of some peacefull out of the way, backwater planet* where nothing ever happens.

Especially since Orks apearantly think: heavily defended planet = challenge/ invitation/ welcome wagon.

On the other hand, if you are on a small rural agri world then you will probably be beset by a raiding force of dark eldar who decided they didn't feel like fighting much today and much rather go booga-booga at a bunch of mon-keigh farmers.

 

Does Terra have a PDF force? if so, that's where i'd like to be!

 

 

* Chances of said planet having a Necron tomb are now trough the roof.



#51 ranoncles

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:48 AM

Imperial Guardsmen actually are meant to represent pretty competant, trained reasonably well equipped troops.  While they are often treated like cannon fodder by the Imperium and are often individually out matched by the xenos they fight compared to most PDF or militia troops they are pretty elite.

 

Added to this is the fact that manpower is not something the Imperium has in short supply. 

 

With all this in mind it doesn't make a huge amount of sense for the Department Munitorium to continue to feed, water, transport, regulate, adminsiter and equip a regiment that is made up of geriatrics, suffering from chronic PTS or are simply physically worn out.  Far more efficient to retire off the old regiment and raise a new one.

 

On this basis I think that Guardsmen do retire.  I would suspect they probably have a long mandatory tour to complete 15+ years up and are encouraged to re-enlist.  After they retire, receive backpay and what ever passes for a pension after which they are on their own.  If they are lucky then they get to colonise a world.  If they are unlucky they find themselves at a random space port a long way from anywhere. 

 

There would be lots of caveats to this though. 

 

First the type of regiment.  Penal Legions obviously don't retire and I doubt many abhuman regiments do either (possible exception of Ratlings).  Certain regiments like the Death Korp don't retire for historic reasons for example.

 

Second the types of enemies that Guardsmen fight and the sheer brutality of the Imperial tactics probably mean that most don't last long enough to retire and those that do are likely so institutionalised and desensitised to violence or are suffering from various battle traumas that they couldn't cope in the outside world. 

 

Thirdly I suspect that simple issues such as pay, pension and cultural dissonance probably means that retirment for many guard probably makes retirement impractical and they just reenlist.

 

So if your from a feral world regiment your pay might be six chickens a day.  On your home world that seemed like a great deal but 15 years later your back pay converted into thrones might not amount to a whole lot.  Certainly not enough to get you back to your own planet.

 

And this is to say nothing of the fact that the day you retire your out.  This means the administratum doesn't feed you, they don't tell you were you are, you don't have any briefings to tell you what to do.  If your really unlucky you might be the only one i nthe regiment retiring that day.  Do you even speak the language of the world you happen to be on?

 

In short I think Guardsmen do retire but it isn't necessarily as simple as that.

 

WH40k is a fictional setting and mundane aspects have not been worked out/depicted. Or depicted in many different ways.

So what we can do is take historical facts and try to match them to how the Imperium would operate....

 

Historically, armies have developed quite sophisticated retirement schemes for its soldiers. Often, they would be better/more advanced than any civil pension/retirement scheme. Not out the goodness of their hearts but because it was very good for morale and because having men trained to commit violence wandering about without any other means to support themselves was a bad idea™.

 

That's why the notion of retired soldiers being dumped by the regiment is a rather silly idea. What is more likely to happen? These men will stoically starve or turn to banditry/attack the uncaring regiment that dumped them there after years of faithfull service?

 

Regarding pay, I can't think of any army in history which didn't pay their soldiers. Perhaps not very much, but pay was necessary. The army can't provide every thing, soldiers have individual needs and luxury items such as alcohol and cigarettes must be paid for. Soldiers have often mutinied if not paid and one individual who mutinied for not being paid even demanded to be paid in full what he was owed before being executed for combat refusual.

 

The Imperium IMO is not stupid. It has rules and regulations for everything and in order to best organise and deploy its resources. So it stands to reason that it would have regulations for retirement & pay because that offers the best return on investment. If tales spread that guardsmen were treated horribly (beyond their actual lot) by the powers that be, the powers that be would have to invest a lot more effort in raising regiments.

 

Not to say that stupid things don't happen but that's mostly because regulations are followed dogmatically without thought or applied inappropriately.



#52 Lynata

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:04 PM

Personally, I still think you are applying too much of the real world onto 40k. Whilst a lot of the franchise has been inspired by it, there are some important differences which affect the overall result - not to mention that you seem to be limiting your real world concerns to the past few centuries.

 

Let's take the idea of "soldiers being dumped by the regiment", for example. Whilst returning a soldier who has served overseas has been standard practice for militaries for some time now, this has not always been the case, simply due to transportation not being easily available and it being too much of an effort for the state to arrange for individual troops to return to their homes. If we didn't have regular airplane, train and bus services these days, you can bet that it wouldn't be standard practice now either, out of sheer necessity.

 

A Roman Legionnaire serving in another corner of the world surely was not expected to be returned by the Empire itself. He'd receive a payment for his service - whether or not he uses it to purchase travel back home, and whether or not said travel was actually available, would have been their business. Due to interstellar transportation in the 41st millennium being highly limited, I am of the opinion that it would be similar for the 40k Imperial Guard.

In fact, it became common practice to provide retired Legionnaires with plots of land in the conquered area, turning them into settlers in order to establish a Roman influence in the new colony. The 2E Codex: Imperial Guard explains the Imperium of Man doing the very same thing. A regiment either fights until it is destroyed, or its members retire by being "granted custodianship" over a world in whose conquest they participated, with the officers becoming the new nobility.

 

As for regular payment ... you pretty much already delivered an argument against your own proposition. If the Imperial Guard cannot provide these luxury items you referred to, who else will? The tau, the eldar or the orks whose planets they are sent to attack? The feral world savages who don't even know what money is?

 

Not that I disagree entirely on this point, mind you! Personally, I like the idea put forward by James Swallow regarding a form of scrip (which has a real world history of military usage, too), as it seems like an excellent medium to support troop morale whilst still retaining a degree of control over how exactly it is spent, as well as logistical/economical necessities (acceptance of local coins etc). I just wanted to expand a bit on the likely pros and cons and special considerations regarding any form of pay, provided one adds this to their interpretation of the setting.


Edited by Lynata, 10 October 2014 - 02:04 PM.

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#53 venkelos

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:28 AM

In a number of facets, I can also see "going home" to be spotty. You might've fought for years, even decades, and meanwhile, life in your home trooped on. I don't imagine any world in the Imperium of 40k being like the town I live in, with suburbia, houses, picket fences, yards, frivolity, and such; Hive Worlds are people-stuffed nightmares that make Star Wars locales like Nar Shaada, or waste byproduct dumping grounds like Ord Mantell and Raxus Prime look positively clean and serene by comparison, while Forge Worlds are smoke-belching infrastructure on a Coruscant-like scale. Other varieties are often equally extreme examples, as whole worlds are specifically devoted to singular objectives. The point of that babble is, while your gone, your home goes on, maybe your family continues, maybe they die, maybe they get squashed by competition, hiver gangs, or xenos incursion. Work in warp travel time dilation, and who knows what might have happened, and over how long a span? You could get home to find nothing left, and then just contribute to more urban squalor, one more homeless wretch bloating the waste of Hive population bloat. Kind of better to keep them on victory fields, where they have proven their faith, and have all the more reason to defend it, in the future. Of course, they might start to become like knights or samurai in peacetime, bored, jerk-like, and getting poor, good for little now that their lord doesn't need their only skill, and succumbing to banditry to make ends meet, or feel the old rush.

 

For money, I sort of agree that I'm not sure what all you would find it good for. You could trade it with your fellow soldiers, and one might want to store it up for when the fighting's done, and the place becomes a town, and you need money to be someone there, but barter is as good for while you are a soldier, and I often imagine the Guard battling on a fallen world already taken by whatever, leaving no cities to trade with, and spend your coin; that's part of why I brought up fraternization all that time ago, since I didn't see Guard having various settlements to visit, and pick up prostitutes, like various soldiers do on Earth. If you aren't fighting Humans, you can't even take prisoners for it, and Commissars would probably frown on it for with heretics almost as much as with aliens. That's why I wondered if the Guard had camp followers, or if their superiors were "typical of the Guard" blinders on what's going on in detail, so long as the end result is what they wanted. Still, if you were more a mobile regiment, like those ferried to numerous battlefields by voidship, I could see some, like Aoife Armengarde's Bansidhe, have literal mall-segments, and you could buy up stuff during the voyage,like stopping in a town.


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#54 Drath

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:31 AM

Ord Mantell would be even worse in the 40k universe after the rebellion that took place in the events of swtor. I almost wouldn't wanna go home for fear of discovering that everyone I knew was dead. Or perhaps worse, didn't recognize physically or emotionally after all I'd been through, or thought I was weak for my scars, not getting what I'd actually been through and/or trying to understand and failing (considering Imperial propaganda).


Edited by Drath, 12 October 2014 - 11:32 AM.

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#55 Robin Graves

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:39 AM

Or like the cadians*:

 

You get sent halfway across the imperium to fight (let's say) Orks, and after long years of fighting hard and bearely surviving you get sent home only to find Failbaddon has now finaly made a dent in the Cadian gate and your home kasr has been overrun by world eaters- scourged by cadian bombardment,-reconquered by chaos forces and finally scoured by a blackstone fortress? And the rest of the world isn't in much better shape. Welcome home son!

 

And how about veterans from death worlds? You get sent home to a world that's a hundred times more lethal than the one you just left.

 

 

* Now Cadians have this image of being the ultimate guardsmen, and you'd expect them to just pick up their lasgun and keep fighting on their home soil, but still comming home like that gotta hurt a little.


Edited by Robin Graves, 12 October 2014 - 11:41 AM.


#56 Drath

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:43 AM

Or like the cadians*:

 

You get sent halfway across the imperium to fight (let's say) Orks, and after long years of fighting hard and bearely surviving you get sent home only to find Failbaddon has now finaly made a dent in the Cadian gate and your home kasr has been overrun by world eaters- scourged by cadian bombardment,-reconquered by chaos forces and finally scoured by a blackstone fortress? And the rest of the world isn't in much better shape. Welcome home son!

They probably would keep fighting, but that'd sting like hell. They'd be less effective overall too, what with the shock in addition to it all.


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#57 ranoncles

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:36 AM

Personally, I still think you are applying too much of the real world onto 40k. Whilst a lot of the franchise has been inspired by it, there are some important differences which affect the overall result - not to mention that you seem to be limiting your real world concerns to the past few centuries.

 

Let's take the idea of "soldiers being dumped by the regiment", for example. Whilst returning a soldier who has served overseas has been standard practice for militaries for some time now, this has not always been the case, simply due to transportation not being easily available and it being too much of an effort for the state to arrange for individual troops to return to their homes. If we didn't have regular airplane, train and bus services these days, you can bet that it wouldn't be standard practice now either, out of sheer necessity.

 

A Roman Legionnaire serving in another corner of the world surely was not expected to be returned by the Empire itself. He'd receive a payment for his service - whether or not he uses it to purchase travel back home, and whether or not said travel was actually available, would have been their business. Due to interstellar transportation in the 41st millennium being highly limited, I am of the opinion that it would be similar for the 40k Imperial Guard.

In fact, it became common practice to provide retired Legionnaires with plots of land in the conquered area, turning them into settlers in order to establish a Roman influence in the new colony. The 2E Codex: Imperial Guard explains the Imperium of Man doing the very same thing. A regiment either fights until it is destroyed, or its members retire by being "granted custodianship" over a world in whose conquest they participated, with the officers becoming the new nobility.

 

As for regular payment ... you pretty much already delivered an argument against your own proposition. If the Imperial Guard cannot provide these luxury items you referred to, who else will? The tau, the eldar or the orks whose planets they are sent to attack? The feral world savages who don't even know what money is?

 

Not that I disagree entirely on this point, mind you! Personally, I like the idea put forward by James Swallow regarding a form of scrip (which has a real world history of military usage, too), as it seems like an excellent medium to support troop morale whilst still retaining a degree of control over how exactly it is spent, as well as logistical/economical necessities (acceptance of local coins etc). I just wanted to expand a bit on the likely pros and cons and special considerations regarding any form of pay, provided one adds this to their interpretation of the setting.

 

I think you misunderstood my point. I agree that the Imperium is not going to go out of its way to get guardsmen back to their home planet. Too costly. But it is not just going to dump them after their service has ended. Because that would be stupid and would lead to banditry as history clearly showes. 

 

The fluff suggests that they are retired as colonists much like the roman legionnairs which indeed makes the most sense.

 

 

As to money, I defy anyone to find an example of an army without money of some kind....Wherever a community arises (such like large bodies of troops), there will be a brisk trade in (illegal) goods. And that will require either money or trade in goods. Which means military supplies which is why armies prefer to pay their men instead of having vital ammunition or parts being traded....

And it won't be tau or Orks providing such luxury goods...it will be human camp followers. Even the red army paid its soldiers during WWII.

 

Seriously, do you people ever read a book about soldiers? Watch a movie? Maybe about prisoners of war? Or even just prisoners in a prison. There always will be trade because people want luxeries, even if that just means a bar of soap and some more ciggies...


Edited by ranoncles, 14 October 2014 - 04:37 AM.


#58 Drath

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:11 AM

I think you misunderstood my point. I agree that the Imperium is not going to go out of its way to get guardsmen back to their home planet. Too costly. But it is not just going to dump them after their service has ended. Because that would be stupid and would lead to banditry as history clearly showes. 

 

The fluff suggests that they are retired as colonists much like the roman legionnairs which indeed makes the most sense.

 

 

As to money, I defy anyone to find an example of an army without money of some kind....Wherever a community arises (such like large bodies of troops), there will be a brisk trade in (illegal) goods. And that will require either money or trade in goods. Which means military supplies which is why armies prefer to pay their men instead of having vital ammunition or parts being traded....

And it won't be tau or Orks providing such luxury goods...it will be human camp followers. Even the red army paid its soldiers during WWII.

 

Seriously, do you people ever read a book about soldiers? Watch a movie? Maybe about prisoners of war? Or even just prisoners in a prison. There always will be trade because people want luxeries, even if that just means a bar of soap and some more ciggies...

 

A) I'm from a military family. B)I've lived it (not on WW2/1 scale, but still.) C) I've read eight of the forgotten voices books.

Admittedly, I was definitely never a POW, so I can't speak for that, but actively serving men usually trade in goods. (I never smoked, so if I somehow got my hand on a pack, I'd trade it away for something.) I can only think of one or two times when I payed money, and that was the official selling of certain items by the quartermaster.


Edited by Drath, 14 October 2014 - 09:13 AM.

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#59 Lynata

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:10 PM

I think the cliche is about cigarettes ... but tbh I've only ever seen people trading (parts of) ration packs. :D

Then again, there were surprisingly few smokers in my unit - things might be different in a prolonged campaign with regular battles where addiction to certain drugs becomes more common.

 

 

As for the camp followers - where would they get their goods from, and what use could they possibly have for some locally minted currency? Assuming a lack of established supply lines (one of the reasons for the lasgun being so popular .. no ammo imports needed!), there won't be a lot of goods they could offer the troops. Sure, many of them would offer services, and others might wander off to hunt food, but even then a bunch of coins you can only pay for on a couple specific worlds seems like a questionable form of payment.

 

Barter, though ... or, like I said, scrip vouchers. Even the US military used scrip to pay soldiers deployed abroad. :)


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#60 Drath

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 12:22 AM

I think the cliche is about cigarettes ... but tbh I've only ever seen people trading (parts of) ration packs. :D

Then again, there were surprisingly few smokers in my unit - things might be different in a prolonged campaign with regular battles where addiction to certain drugs becomes more common.

 

Yeah, but it was huge to smoke at the time, and alot did, whereas I just never bothered. I could trade them for sausages, or someone's Judge Dredd when they were done (one of the aforementioned 'certain items', but there never seemed to be quite enough.) I've always been thin, even after the training so I needed a bit more food and those 'sausages' were so good. (At the time, at least. ;) ) I hadn't really thought about scrip, though it'd make sense to pay Imp's in scrip, instead of thrones. Bit harder to lose too, if you're careful.


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And, GM of all the above.





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