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Giving this another go. Advice?


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#21 AiriusTorpora

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:54 PM

 

Saying there is major things wrong with this game reminds me of when I was watching the world cup at a bar by my house and there was this drunk American watching perhaps his first soccer game and the whole time he was shouting out these dumb ideas on how to make soccer better. Descent is balanced in my opinion but if you have a not so talented overlord and a great player as a hero, the heroes will probably win. A talented overlord who understands the game, the overlord will win.
I'm sure I would win or at least make it challenging for the players is I was your overlord, with no restrictions. Where do you live? I have saturday off.

I am not going to debate with you on who the better gamer is. I have no reason to doubt you and am sure that you do really well. I agree with you that this game is well balanced; my friends and I have had a blast with the Shadow Rune Campaign (although I own everything, thus far we have only played the starting campaign) and have played the Overlord in turn.

 

I believe that the problem lies in the lack of mortality for both hero and OL. There never seems to be mortal repercussions as a direct result of a poor decision that I or another have made. If anyone dies in this edition of Descent, they are simply "revived" in the next turn. That's it, no permanent setbacks or fear of committing their forces of good or ill to battle so and so as everyone is rewarded for failure by earning an experience point regardless.

 

This to me cheapens the overall experience for me on a personal level. And lets be clear, you and I know that the heroes can play the "loose to win" strategy whereby each player focuses on treasure hunting until the end of the game, collects the best treasure before the final battle and then commits to operation "Ground and Pound".

 

 

If the heros gave me every choice of quest, every relic I wanted, and all the XP bonuses... I could hand them the act 1 and 2 shopping decks and tell them to take everything they wanted I would still paste them.



#22 thedremak

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 12:07 PM

How did it go?

#23 Kilazar

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 05:56 PM

This time it went better. We got all the way to the Shadow Rune, and had to stop before playing it.

 

We did end up going with a plot deck. I decided on Belthir, though I'm not sure it's working out as well as I had hoped.

 

First quest was first blood hero win. I decided instead of fighting for this one (I have won it but it's a pain) I'd just run mauler around crazy like and let my gobo's build up threat. I came out of this with 2 extra threat.

 

Second quest was Death On the wing Hero win- I managed to extend the first encounter for a long time and build up 2 threat. I didn't NEED to use any of my OL cards, and in hind site, I should have just saved every single one of them for the next encounter hero win. Encounter two heroes win, but I know where my mistakes were. I took menders to compliment Belthir and the elemental. I made the mistake of making belthir try to do all the work on the guards. I should have taken a different open group and let that group work on them while kiting belthir around crazy like. Also my elemental never got a single action. Per usualy one hero stayed close enough to destroy them on each spawn. And the opening turn the heroes pasted both ele's and did 7 damage to Belthir. Thankfully the menders healed 5 of it. But that did me no good. Had I saved ALL my OL cards from first encounter I think I could have pulled this.

 

Thrid quest The Cardinals Plight - OL Win - I learned from my mistake on the last quest and did not burn a single OL card (Oh I'm going sabtour btw.) Took Shadow Dragons and Mendors. I did a really good job of blocking the access to the search tokens with the master dragon and the menders. But the dice hated me and I failed 4 raise zombies in a row.. Only managed to get 2 zombies off the board before the heroes secured a win. BUT thanks to the glut of threat and OL cards I was able to win the second half. Goblin archers actually saved the day by pinning off Jain who had used her feat to get to the stairway for the rune of dawn. This one was a nail biter though. Koth was one move away from the exit when I pasted him.

 

Fourth and last for the day was my choice, and I went with castle derian. Hero's win.. Took ettins for the entrance group (should have taken dragons...) And Barghasts for the exit group. I only killed on fricken thing thanks to Jain and her stupid feet again. The barghast could not close the deal on the up most one, he kept defending. Encounter 2 was kind of a joke. I got 15 damage on Palamon before the hero's managed to just clear my stuff. I did not have hardly any OL cards carried over from encounter 1 because it ended so fast.

 

So right now counting main quests it's heroes 2, OL 1. 

 

 

OL cards I bought I think, explosive rune x2.. saved 2 xp.. Then threat cards, cut a deal.. fight with honor(?), And the one that lets you pull a card from your graveyard to the top of the OL deck. I thought this was going to be a badass combo with the Staff I got from the cardinal, but I couldn't get it to work fast enough. Figured it was going to be discard trap card to use the recursion card, then discard a different OL card to use the staff to draw the card I just put on my deck.... sounds cool, but has not worked out yet, and I'm not sure it will. But I'm going to keep goind down the Sabatour path anyhow.


Edited by Kilazar, 10 August 2014 - 06:00 PM.


#24 Kilazar

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 06:18 PM

BUUUT

 

Everyone had fun, and no one got grumpy. So we'll probably try to finish up in smaller chunks over the next couple of weeks.

 

A couple questions came up, and may actually change how well the heroes did/do.

 

WHEN do you spend surges? Before defense is rolled? Or can you wait to spend them after the defense roll? Unless it's a special surge thing like "need one surge to hit shadow dragon". Right now we played spend when you want.. so if a hero surged he could wait to see what the defense is, and then if a h eart would get through, choose stun.. etc.

 

 

Can Jane interrupt her feat for anything other than her built in attack. Can she interrupt it for the built in attack and two other attacks, then complete the move? Can she open doors during her feat if she's thief and has the open door for no action ability? Can you stop her with a trap card that saps or ends the move action?

 

When a group is given a tile with no specific spot to start in, can the OL place say a large monster so that some of it's mass is not on the tile as long as 1 or 2 of it's bits are on the required space? Or does it have to be placed entirely within the tile? Or rather can a shadow dragon straddle a tile connection as long as one or more of it's bits occupy squares in the required tile?


Edited by Kilazar, 10 August 2014 - 07:34 PM.


#25 any2cards

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 06:54 PM

WHEN do you spend surges? Before defense is rolled? Or can you wait to spend them after the defense roll? Unless it's a special surge thing like "need one surge to hit shadow dragon". Right now we played spend when you want.. so if a hero surged he could wait to see what the defense is, and then if a h eart would get through, choose stun.. etc.

 

When a group is given a tile with no specific spot to start in, can the OL place say a large monster so that some of it's mass is not on the tile as long as 1 or 2 of it's bits are on the required space? Or does it have to be placed entirely within the tile? Or rather can a shadow dragon straddle a tile connection as long as one or more of it's bits occupy squares in the required tile?

 

First thing to remember is that both attacker and defender roll dice at the same exact time (base rules, pg 9, under Attack, point 2).  After checking range, then you spend surges.  Since the defense will roll dice at the same time as the attacker, the attacker will know the results (i.e. if any damage got through), so after checking range, and assuming the attack hits, the attacker can then spend surges as they desire.

 

When the quest tells you to place an open group on a specific tile, all of that open group has to be within the borders of that tile ... in other words completely on that tile.


Edited by any2cards, 10 August 2014 - 06:56 PM.


#26 Steve-O

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 07:56 PM

WHEN do you spend surges? Before defense is rolled? Or can you wait to spend them after the defense roll? Unless it's a special surge thing like "need one surge to hit shadow dragon". Right now we played spend when you want.. so if a hero surged he could wait to see what the defense is, and then if a heart would get through, choose stun.. etc.


Per the attack rules on page 11, rolling dice is step 2, checking range is step 3 and spending surges is step 4. So all surges are spent after dice are rolled. 
 

Can Jane interrupt her feat for anything other than her built in attack. Can she interrupt it for the built in attack and two other attacks, then complete the move?


No. Firstly, you can only interrupt a Move Action and Jain's special ability is not a Move Action (it's a Special Action that happens to involve letting her move as part of its effect.)

Secondly, the special ability itself requires Jain to spend an action, so she definitely could not get in two other attacks, even if she could interrupt it (which she can't anyway.)


Can she open doors during her feat if she's thief and has the open door for no action ability?


This one is a bit sticky.

Once an action (any action) has been initiated, it must be resolved completely before another action can be initiated. However, with the Thief ability, opening doors is not an action.

Unfortunately, the word "ability" is not actually defined in the rules. It is used to refer to basically anything a player can "do," but whether or not an ability can be done in the middle of an action is not properly defined.

I'm inclined to say no, myself, because I want to limit the number of things that can be happening all at the same time, but there's definitely room to argue the other side if you're so inclined.


Can you stop her with a trap card that saps or ends the move action?


You can't use a trap that triggers "during a Move Action" because this ability is not a Move Action (as above.) However, you could use a trap that triggers upon "entering a space" because she's still doing that each time she moves.


When a group is given a tile with no specific spot to start in, can the OL place say a large monster so that some of it's mass is not on the tile as long as 1 or 2 of it's bits are on the required space? Or does it have to be placed entirely within the tile? Or rather can a shadow dragon straddle a tile connection as long as one or more of it's bits occupy squares in the required tile?


You must place the figure(s) entirely on the specified tile if it's possible to do so. If there's no room on the specified tile to fit all required figures, then the excess must be placed as close as legally possible.

#27 Zaltyre

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 07:59 PM

Can Jane interrupt her feat for anything other than her built in attack. Can she interrupt it for the built in attack and two other attacks, then complete the move? Can she open doors during her feat if she's thief and has the open door for no action ability? Can you stop her with a trap card that saps or ends the move action?

 

 

When a group is given a tile with no specific spot to start in, can the OL place say a large monster so that some of it's mass is not on the tile as long as 1 or 2 of it's bits are on the required space? Or does it have to be placed entirely within the tile? Or rather can a shadow dragon straddle a tile connection as long as one or more of it's bits occupy squares in the required tile?

Move actions can be interrupted to perform other actions, but Jain's feat is not a move action- it's a special action where the character moves double speed and attacks somewhere in there.

 

Monsters can't voluntarily be placed only partially on the tile they start, but when spawning if a tile isn't big enough to hold the reinforcements, then they can be placed partially (the reinforcements can't be blocked.)



#28 thedremak

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 09:33 PM

ACT 2 gets to be sooooo much more fun also.

#29 rfisha

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 12:27 AM

 

Fourth and last for the day was my choice, and I went with castle derian. Hero's win.. Took ettins for the entrance group (should have taken dragons...) And Barghasts for the exit group. I only killed on fricken thing thanks to Jain and her stupid feet again. The barghast could not close the deal on the up most one, he kept defending. Encounter 2 was kind of a joke. I got 15 damage on Palamon before the hero's managed to just clear my stuff. I did not have hardly any OL cards carried over from encounter 1 because it ended so fast.

 

 

Avoid Castel Daerion if you are the OL, it is a hard one to claim (assuming you are playing with the errata).  Masquerade Ball is better suited to the OL.



#30 Kilazar

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 05:36 AM

 

 

Fourth and last for the day was my choice, and I went with castle derian. Hero's win.. Took ettins for the entrance group (should have taken dragons...) And Barghasts for the exit group. I only killed on fricken thing thanks to Jain and her stupid feet again. The barghast could not close the deal on the up most one, he kept defending. Encounter 2 was kind of a joke. I got 15 damage on Palamon before the hero's managed to just clear my stuff. I did not have hardly any OL cards carried over from encounter 1 because it ended so fast.

 

 

Avoid Castel Daerion if you are the OL, it is a hard one to claim (assuming you are playing with the errata).  Masquerade Ball is better suited to the OL.

 

 

 

I will remember that for next time. I was going off of a spreadsheet that said OL had advantage. 

 

Ok so back to Jain. Is jain moving off of an MP pool as if she took two move actions (I know it's not a move action so I can't key off of that.) I'm thinking of things like pit trap, can I hit her on her last entrance of a space and cause her to be stunned?



#31 any2cards

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 09:07 AM

As @Steve-O indicated above, you can use any card and/or ability that affects a hero entering a new space.



#32 Kilazar

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 09:12 AM

As @Steve-O indicated above, you can use any card and/or ability that affects a hero entering a new space.

 

I get that I could use pit trap.. But would it actually cause her to suffer the effects. Hence why I'm asking if the feat generates an MP pool. If it does, then I'd have to wait until she used her last MP if I wanted to stun her. If does not, then I can use the pit trap during any portion of her feat that she enters a new space. I know it won't stop the attack she gets as part of the feat.

 

Just trying to get the in's on any way to stop her. Because right now she is the major reason encounters are getting beaten. And I've only been able to punish her once for bolting off by herself. And that was in the cardinal plight, when she bolted to the farthest search token to try for a fast rune of dawn. I was able to spawn gobo's and block her in.



#33 Whitewing

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:49 AM

Her feat is not a move action, and does not generate a movement point pool. Rather, it indicates that she moves a number of spaces up to her speed.



#34 any2cards

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:58 AM

Her feat is not a move action, and does not generate a movement point pool. Rather, it indicates that she moves a number of spaces up to her speed.

 

@Kilazar ... Whitewing's clarification means that each and every space she enters is a space that you can play on card on her.



#35 Kilazar

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 11:07 AM

Her feat is not a move action, and does not generate a movement point pool. Rather, it indicates that she moves a number of spaces up to her speed.

 

 

Thanks that is what i was looking for. I wanted to make sure that if I played this on her when she moved 3 spaces she would suffer the stun without being able to go, well I'll move an extra space cause I have MP to burn thus not triggering the "no mp" portion of the card. And also make sure I did not have to wait until jain used the 10 move to hit her with it.

 

 

 

Not being a move action did not necessarily preclude the feat having  or not having an MP pool. The MP system in this can be wonky if you sit down and think about it.


Edited by Kilazar, 11 August 2014 - 11:07 AM.


#36 Whitewing

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 11:37 AM

 

Her feat is not a move action, and does not generate a movement point pool. Rather, it indicates that she moves a number of spaces up to her speed.

 

 

Thanks that is what i was looking for. I wanted to make sure that if I played this on her when she moved 3 spaces she would suffer the stun without being able to go, well I'll move an extra space cause I have MP to burn thus not triggering the "no mp" portion of the card. And also make sure I did not have to wait until jain used the 10 move to hit her with it.

 

 

 

Not being a move action did not necessarily preclude the feat having  or not having an MP pool. The MP system in this can be wonky if you sit down and think about it.

 

 

Can be is an understatement. It helps if you think of movements points as only generated by things that specifically state that they generate movement points, as well as move actions. Anything else at all that involves movement of any kind does not use movement points for it.



#37 Kilazar

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 11:51 AM

I really think that from this point on, I'm going to punish the Jain player any time I can. Because her feat has pretty much sealed the deal on all the quests so far. 

 

Hell she one shots my master shadow dragons with that stupid crossbow. 

 

So I think this thread will remain alive for further reports on the continence of our sessions. Next chapter.. punch Jain in the face repeatedly!

 

So the next quest is The Shadow Rune.

 

Heroes are as follows, not I will butcher this because my stuff is not in front of me.

Grisban - zerker - axe of awesome

Jain - Thief - stupid crossbow and shield from death on the wing quest

Leoric - Necro - 

Alvric - Disciple - 

 

Overlord cards - Basic with explosive runes x2

Belthir with the following cards - Dual Training, Cut a Deal, Resourceful, and Fight with Honor

Relic from Cardinal quest

 

I have (as the OL) 2 xp and 3 threat to spend. And I honestly don't know where I want to go with my OL deck or plot deck. I thought the combo of Start of turn , resourceful via fight with honor.. then discard another card to use the staff to get back what I put on my deck was not as good as I thought it was going to be.. In fact. It is terrible.

 

So I'm up for suggestions on where to go with my decks.


Edited by Kilazar, 11 August 2014 - 12:13 PM.


#38 Zaltyre

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 05:56 PM

Just so you know, if you stun Jain during her heroic feat, she will not be stopped. She'll become stunned, but that's her second action for her turn (assuming the heroic feat was the first action.) She still gets to resolve the action she already started (move double her speed and attack.)



#39 Carbini

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:55 PM

OK I'm gonna hijack this thread for just a moment, and I'm gonna level with you guys big time.

So I've been making a HUGE blunder apparently: I've read the rules X times over and I NEVER noticed that defense is rolled at the same time with attack. We have ALWAYS rolled defense after surges. Perhaps this is due to it being so "obvious" that no one contested it and I never had to reference it, who knows.

So OK, I've totally messed that up through 4-6 campaigns and various campaigns that made it 2 quests in and died, but at the moment whatever, at least we were consistent on both sides (OL and hero).

But here's the thing: what about fire breath and blast on a surge? I mean I get that ruling would be the obvious "just roll defense for the other figures because they are newly effected by the attack" but this reaaaaly doesn't make sense to me given how logically rolling defense after surges has been for us, especially since now you are seeing the full results of the attack. The blast-affected figures are now essentially the "lucky ones" since the attacker didn't know the full results of dmg vs defense dice against them and may have chosen to pull back the attack for stamina.

The single target risk associated with stamina regen is all sorts of messed up now. In our plays it was a matter of:

"OK I can do 4 damage plus stamina or 5 damage to this goblin, is he going to roll 2 defense? naw no way, go for the 4 damage plus... DAMNIT!"

 

...and in a way that seemed like a great risk-reward opportunity, not to mention a more obvious approach since it was basically setting up the form of the attack, then having the defender roll dice against the formulated attack. In the correct way of playing, this same element exists, but only when an attack gains the ability to affect additional targets?

Hmm... I'm kinda irked on this... it's totally my mistake and I'm going to give the correct way quite a bit of time as you have to keep control by sticking to the rules best as possible... but I may just house rule this out of comfort and even perhaps deeper game play... especially since we haven't come into any conflict where the way we've been doing it screws up the game.



#40 Zaltyre

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 07:53 PM

Don't feel bad, Carbini. I played 2 campaigns like that (as an intentional house rule, actually) and it was a lot of fun. It added a degree of complexity to combat, causing the attacker to weigh the risk of inflicting less damage against gaining a benefit from a surge. Honestly, we only stopped because of how much it was found to mess up the "after dice are rolled" trigger on attack (but mostly defense) abilities. For example, the shadow dragon could spend his surge on fire breath only to have the fire breath cancelled by the original target. 






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