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#21 Fgdsfg

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:42 AM

For reference, I disagree with most of everything Fdgsfg just wrote, and I still think Telekinesis is worthwhile.

Any reasons as to why? I basically listed a number of facts relating to Telekinesis and said it was worthwhile, so it's odd that you'd disagree. What are you disagreeing on? The RAW?

Or are you being a contrarian on principle?

Edited by Fgdsfg, 03 August 2014 - 07:44 AM.

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#22 Decessor

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:31 PM


Yes there is a chance for psychic phenomena. Those actions are all Focus Power tests, which cause psychic phenomena.

 

 

Re-reading the page in question, I accept that. Psychic focus tests are too easy to pump up, especially with things like Familiars and astropathic choirs.



#23 Errant Knight

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:22 PM

It all depends on the campaign style, as someone else mentioned.

 

If you're doing a lot of dungeon crawls, you'll want TK.  Otherwise, it's just not that useful.

 

Telepathy is your prime baby.  With it you're the Lord Captain's chief advisor.  If he doesn't take your advice, you can become the Lord Captain and give your own orders through his mouth.  I mean, you read his enemies' minds and give him their secrets.  This is THE ability for games full of intrigue, commerce, or anything else that isn't strictly personal combat, and it isn't half bad for that.

 

Divination is THE secondary ability for astropaths.  With it you can man any station on the ship.  And, you'll be THE augur operator.

 

The rest are just icing.  I'm not a cake guy, so I don't appreciate icing the way some people do.  I grew up on pies.


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#24 Errant Knight

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:33 PM

And one thing that has always bothered me, and rarely gets played out, is only mentioned as a passing thought in the rulebooks, and is an absolute necessity...

 

Astropaths are the Time Keepers on the ship.  When you come out of the Warp you have no sense of time.  That means, using knowledge and simple logic, that any attempts by the Navigator to make a chart of the route he just used AUTOMATICALLY FAILS.  You can't navigate across a two-dimensional ocean without an accurate timepiece.  What's your chances of doing so in three-dimensional space?  Heck, longitude wasn't accurately recorded until someone invented a portable and accurate clock.  So, the Astropath's first action upon exiting the Warp should be to contact other Astropaths in nearby systems so they can reset the clocks.  This alone should tell you that your Rank 1 Astropath isn't the best aboard the ship, just the one whose opinion the Lord Captain trusts, or perhaps the one that can make sense of the crazy but powerful Astropath's words.


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#25 Nameless2all

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:06 AM

....

The rest are just icing.  I'm not a cake guy, so I don't appreciate icing the way some people do.  I grew up on pies.

I'm assuming you are referring to the Portal Incident as discovered by Chell in 40.981.  Citing notes in investigation <redacted>, I must regrettably inform you that the cake is a lie. 

 

P.S. I like pie too.  :)


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#26 Magellan

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:30 AM

Isn't checking the time something you could do via the motion of celestial bodies, which I assume is the same way you find out if you ended up where you intended?


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#27 Errant Knight

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:36 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by celestial bodies, Magellan, though I'll make the assumption that you mean the movement of the stars themselves in a spinning disk around the galactic core.  Most of those stars are invisible, though just a few bright ones would help locate your position, but I'm thinking you'd still be light years off unless very lucky.  Really bright stars are visible from a long distance, even in galactic terms, and the chance of even a minor error means you'd be way off when measuring from a thousand light years or more away.  There'd be hundreds of stars to choose from, even if you go with low-ball figures for stellar density.  I'm sure there are also other methods but does the Imperium have those technologies available anymore?  Considering the poor state of their augur arrays, I'd have to say no.  There are some Dark Age of Technology ship components out there and some of them aid in navigation, even without Warp drives, and those strike me as the most likely sources of this ability in detection.

 

But, having an astropath accurately figure the time?  It might have seemed like days in the Warp, but you find that months or years have passed and that would seem to give you a more accurate basis for determining exact location, which would be necessary for making star charts.

 

Plus, it makes the Astropath just that much more of a necessary figure on board the ship.  I like it when all the players find their characters are absolutely necessary for a functioning Dynasty.



#28 Radwraith

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 01:15 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by celestial bodies, Magellan, though I'll make the assumption that you mean the movement of the stars themselves in a spinning disk around the galactic core.  Most of those stars are invisible, though just a few bright ones would help locate your position, but I'm thinking you'd still be light years off unless very lucky.  Really bright stars are visible from a long distance, even in galactic terms, and the chance of even a minor error means you'd be way off when measuring from a thousand light years or more away.  There'd be hundreds of stars to choose from, even if you go with low-ball figures for stellar density.  I'm sure there are also other methods but does the Imperium have those technologies available anymore?  Considering the poor state of their augur arrays, I'd have to say no.  There are some Dark Age of Technology ship components out there and some of them aid in navigation, even without Warp drives, and those strike me as the most likely sources of this ability in detection.

 

But, having an astropath accurately figure the time?  It might have seemed like days in the Warp, but you find that months or years have passed and that would seem to give you a more accurate basis for determining exact location, which would be necessary for making star charts.

 

Plus, it makes the Astropath just that much more of a necessary figure on board the ship.  I like it when all the players find their characters are absolutely necessary for a functioning Dynasty.

Sort of but no! In most cases the Navigator has at least one solid bearing upon exit from the warp: The Astronomicon! Given this is a known location, you need only one other star for triangulation. Since Stars actually have their own thermal signature (We've known this since the seventies), Verifying a secondary location is the one you think it is should be fairly simple. Once you have the Star verified, It's variation from it's predicted position gives you your time Index. Further, The system you are arriving in has it's own thermal signature which should be fairly easy to verify against the one you were aiming for to begin with!

 

Imperial Technology (Especially on a Voidship) is not stuck in the stone age. They are capable of incredible feats of precision when necessary! This is why a Voidship can make a short Calculated Warp Jump even without a navigator!

 

When a Voidship arrives in a new system, It spends 1d5 hours surveying it before it does anything else! I have to believe that one of the things they are doing is verifying their own position.


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#29 Erathia

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:57 PM

 

I'm not sure what you mean by celestial bodies, Magellan, though I'll make the assumption that you mean the movement of the stars themselves in a spinning disk around the galactic core.  Most of those stars are invisible, though just a few bright ones would help locate your position, but I'm thinking you'd still be light years off unless very lucky.  Really bright stars are visible from a long distance, even in galactic terms, and the chance of even a minor error means you'd be way off when measuring from a thousand light years or more away.  There'd be hundreds of stars to choose from, even if you go with low-ball figures for stellar density.  I'm sure there are also other methods but does the Imperium have those technologies available anymore?  Considering the poor state of their augur arrays, I'd have to say no.  There are some Dark Age of Technology ship components out there and some of them aid in navigation, even without Warp drives, and those strike me as the most likely sources of this ability in detection.

 

But, having an astropath accurately figure the time?  It might have seemed like days in the Warp, but you find that months or years have passed and that would seem to give you a more accurate basis for determining exact location, which would be necessary for making star charts.

 

Plus, it makes the Astropath just that much more of a necessary figure on board the ship.  I like it when all the players find their characters are absolutely necessary for a functioning Dynasty.

Sort of but no! In most cases the Navigator has at least one solid bearing upon exit from the warp: The Astronomicon! Given this is a known location, you need only one other star for triangulation. Since Stars actually have their own thermal signature (We've known this since the seventies), Verifying a secondary location is the one you think it is should be fairly simple. Once you have the Star verified, It's variation from it's predicted position gives you your time Index. Further, The system you are arriving in has it's own thermal signature which should be fairly easy to verify against the one you were aiming for to begin with!

 

Imperial Technology (Especially on a Voidship) is not stuck in the stone age. They are capable of incredible feats of precision when necessary! This is why a Voidship can make a short Calculated Warp Jump even without a navigator!

 

When a Voidship arrives in a new system, It spends 1d5 hours surveying it before it does anything else! I have to believe that one of the things they are doing is verifying their own position.

 

I agree with so very much of this, though I still usually roll d100 for each week in the Warp to create a "random" offset for what the true day is, then make them pass a Scholastic Lore Astromancy test with each degree of success narrowing in on the true time. Or they can just ask someone.


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#30 Tenebrae

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:28 PM

The trick here is the range: Quest for Warmth has a range of PR*2 VU - meaning you can find eldar (and dark eldar) vessels in the void, which can otherwise be a chore. And you can do this while in Silent Running mode

Mind Scan + Astropathic Choir. Not quite the same range, but it doesn't require a whole 'nother discipline.

Mindscan has a range measured in meters (unless there's an errata I've missed).
You'd need an effective PR of 40 to get a range of 1 VU.
Sorry, not comparable.

Sadly true - but given how few other ways there are to capture things alive...

Stun grenade spam and grappling, mind control, garrotes. I would argue all of these are more effective than causing one fatigue a round to an unrestrained opponent.

Telepathy is always better. :)
If I've come across as stating otherwise, my apologies.

...and yet people recommend Telekinesis? Which has the Basic Technique and Precission Telekinesis, an pretty much everything else is more-of-the-same, most of which can be easily replicated by the one thing almost every group have in abundance: guns.
I think I'll stick with Voidfrost of you don't mind. At least that provides me with a few options.
No, it's not the be-all-end-all disipline that everyone must have, but I think it compares favorably to eg. Telekinesis.

I don't. Precision Telekinesis allows you to substitute pretty much any physical stat for Willpower, and the extra armour from TK shield alone makes the entire discipline worth it in my opinion.

Haven't been relevant in any campaign I've GMed. Physical stats are rarely that important.
/me shrugs.
you may well be correct, still doesn't make it terribly useful IMAO.

It also enables you to use many of the ship combat powers from Navis Primer, if memory serves. You won't have enough psychic powers available to pick everything from all three of your disciplines anyway, so you might as well take one that allows you to cherry pick something good.

Now, this is a valid point.
The first one in favour of TK, as far as I'm concerned. :)

It all depends on the campaign style, as someone else mentioned.

If you're doing a lot of dungeon crawls, you'll want TK. Otherwise, it's just not that useful.

Telepathy is your prime baby. With it you're the Lord Captain's chief advisor. If he doesn't take your advice, you can become the Lord Captain and give your own orders through his mouth. I mean, you read his enemies' minds and give him their secrets. This is THE ability for games full of intrigue, commerce, or anything else that isn't strictly personal combat, and it isn't half bad for that.

Divination is THE secondary ability for astropaths. With it you can man any station on the ship. And, you'll be THE augur operator.

This. So much this.

#31 Errant Knight

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:47 PM

Radwraith, you're right about the Astronomicon, but you just described how to triangulate on a 2-dimensional surface.  The galaxy is very 3-dimensional, and that 3rd dimension is over 1,000 light years thick, not including the halo.

 

Hey, it's your game, knock yourself out.  My Imperium doesn't begin to understand its technology.  I'm an old fart and grew up on Aasimov.  My Imperium is drifting into a Dark Age of Technology, not out of one.

 

Navigation on the surface of the Earth is impossible without accurate timepieces.  There are no GPS satellites orbiting the galaxy to make your I-Augurs function correctly.  I can't imagine that somehow navigating the galaxy is easier, even with a third eye.


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#32 filliman

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:22 PM

drifting into a Dark Age of Technology, not out of one.

Wouldn't the Imperium be drifting OUT of one, since it was in the past? Or are you referring to a Dark Age in that they have no idea what that fancy bit of machinery does, when it is in fact an Archeotech Coffee Brewer that they wrapped a laurel wreath around and soak it in unguents daily because TECHNOLOGY? OR, could it be that your crew REALLY effed up on their calculations and wound up in the actual Dark Age of Technology? All that said, I agree that having a Warp Eye wouldn't necessarily make it easier to navigate. GRANTED, the Astronomicon is basically a North Star for the galaxy, so I like to imagine the Novators used these ten-thousand years to perfect this undoubtedly esoteric art of getting around, plus they use crazy warp magic in the form of pre-flight rituals, so that in theory (hopefully) helps. Hopefully. Emphasis on Hope.


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#33 Magellan

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:59 AM

Mind Scan + Astropathic Choir. Not quite the same range, but it doesn't require a whole 'nother discipline.
Mindscan has a range measured in meters (unless there's an errata I've missed).
You'd need an effective PR of 40 to get a range of 1 VU.
Sorry, not comparable

As I said, use it from the Astropathic Choir-Chamber to gain a range of 5VU.

 


Sadly true - but given how few other ways there are to capture things alive...

Stun grenade spam and grappling, mind control, garrotes. I would argue all of these are more effective than causing one fatigue a round to an unrestrained opponent.

 

Telepathy is always better. :)
If I've come across as stating otherwise, my apologies

Well, you were implying that Voidfrost was worth taking to capture people alive, but since Telepathy is always better at that function, and an astropath with Voidfrost by definition already has Telepathy, I don't see where your argument comes from.

 

Haven't been relevant in any campaign I've GMed. Physical stats are rarely that important.
/me shrugs.
you may well be correct, still doesn't make it terribly useful IMAO

A campaign where you never get any use out of armour? Interesting concept, but to each their own, I suppose.


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#34 Radwraith

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:09 AM

Radwraith, you're right about the Astronomicon, but you just described how to triangulate on a 2-dimensional surface.  The galaxy is very 3-dimensional, and that 3rd dimension is over 1,000 light years thick, not including the halo.
 
Hey, it's your game, knock yourself out.  My Imperium doesn't begin to understand its technology.  I'm an old fart and grew up on Aasimov.  My Imperium is drifting into a Dark Age of Technology, not out of one.
 
Navigation on the surface of the Earth is impossible without accurate timepieces.  There are no GPS satellites orbiting the galaxy to make your I-Augurs function correctly.  I can't imagine that somehow navigating the galaxy is easier, even with a third eye.


You're splitting hairs here! Two points would be sufficient to determine your rough location as any bearing would also include an inclination/declination in it. I never meant to suggest that the ship would be limited to two bearings. Only that you need a minimum of two.

#35 Errant Knight

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:14 PM

 

drifting into a Dark Age of Technology, not out of one.

Wouldn't the Imperium be drifting OUT of one, since it was in the past? Or are you referring to a Dark Age in that they have no idea what that fancy bit of machinery does, when it is in fact an Archeotech Coffee Brewer that they wrapped a laurel wreath around and soak it in unguents daily because TECHNOLOGY? OR, could it be that your crew REALLY effed up on their calculations and wound up in the actual Dark Age of Technology? All that said, I agree that having a Warp Eye wouldn't necessarily make it easier to navigate. GRANTED, the Astronomicon is basically a North Star for the galaxy, so I like to imagine the Novators used these ten-thousand years to perfect this undoubtedly esoteric art of getting around, plus they use crazy warp magic in the form of pre-flight rituals, so that in theory (hopefully) helps. Hopefully. Emphasis on Hope.

 

 

The Imperium calls an Age of Technology a Dark Age.  I call an age without knowledge a Dark One.  Call it a propaganda war.

 

My meaning is that the Imperium is losing knowledge, not gaining it.

 

And I give the Astropath a role on the navigation team.  Without a good one, the Navigator can still fly the ship around, entering and exiting the Warp, but they can't chart a route.

 

Of course, I had to home-brew some navigation rules.  The core rulebook makes the Navigator a boring role to play outside dungeon crawls, and Navis Primer cripples the ship every few voyages.  I needed something in between.  My rules result in frequent set-backs with little chance of utter catastrophe as long as the rituals are followed.  The keys to speeding up a voyage, and making it safe is the presence of the Astronomicon and a good set of charts, usually via Trade (Astrography).  And new charts can also be a source of PF.



#36 Errant

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:28 PM

Of course, I had to home-brew some navigation rules.  The core rulebook makes the Navigator a boring role to play outside dungeon crawls, and Navis Primer cripples the ship every few voyages.  I needed something in between.  My rules result in frequent set-backs with little chance of utter catastrophe as long as the rituals are followed.  The keys to speeding up a voyage, and making it safe is the presence of the Astronomicon and a good set of charts, usually via Trade (Astrography).  And new charts can also be a source of PF.

 

Anything you'd care to post? My players are threatening to boycott using the Navis Primer rules, due to the obivously hilariously nerve-wracking and roll-wasting adventure that is navigating warp hazards.



#37 Tenebrae

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:32 AM

 

 

Mind Scan + Astropathic Choir. Not quite the same range, but it doesn't require a whole 'nother discipline.

Mindscan has a range measured in meters (unless there's an errata I've missed).
You'd need an effective PR of 40 to get a range of 1 VU.
Sorry, not comparable

 

As I said, use it from the Astropathic Choir-Chamber to gain a range of 5VU.

 

Point, but still, hardly enough to be relevant I think.

 

 

 

Sadly true - but given how few other ways there are to capture things alive...

Stun grenade spam and grappling, mind control, garrotes. I would argue all of these are more effective than causing one fatigue a round to an unrestrained opponent.

 

Telepathy is always better. :)
If I've come across as stating otherwise, my apologies

 

Well, you were implying that Voidfrost was worth taking to capture people alive, but since Telepathy is always better at that function, and an astropath with Voidfrost by definition already has Telepathy, I don't see where your argument comes from.

 

No, I'm the one who called telekinesis irrelevant.
I was merely supporting the one suggesting using Voidfrost for causing fatigue.
My main point was that the arguments against Voidfrost were atleast as well-founded against TK.

 

Haven't been relevant in any campaign I've GMed. Physical stats are rarely that important.
/me shrugs.
you may well be correct, still doesn't make it terribly useful IMAO

A campaign where you never get any use out of armour? Interesting concept, but to each their own, I suppose.

 

/me shrugs.
If you can't avoid combat (on that scale), you've failed anyway.
If your Astropath is present, Telepathy tends to make armour irrelevant.
Just my experience though.

I always look for the non-combat application, pretty much exclusively.

 

Anything you'd care to post? My players are threatening to boycott using the Navis Primer rules, due to the obivously hilariously nerve-wracking and roll-wasting adventure that is navigating warp hazards.

Obviously hilarious? Wasting 20-30 minutes watching someone rolling dice?

To each their own I suppose.



#38 Errant Knight

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:15 AM

Errant, I'll post up my navigation rules over under House Rules.  They are already over there somewhere but in another thread and I don't remember which.  I'll make it's own thread so it's easier to find.


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#39 Magellan

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:19 AM

No, I'm the one who called telekinesis irrelevant.
I was merely supporting the one suggesting using Voidfrost for causing fatigue.
My main point was that the arguments against Voidfrost were atleast as well-founded against TK.

I directly quoted the part where you implied what I said you implied.

 

If you don't play the game the way I want, you've failed.

It's this attitude that makes these discussions so very difficult.


 

 

Obviously hilarious? Wasting 20-30 minutes watching someone rolling dice?

To each their own I suppose.

There's this new thing called sarcasm, you might have heard of it. Oh wait, you obviously haven't. For reference, I'm using it right now.


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#40 Errant Knight

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:04 AM

Radwraith, maybe I am splitting hairs, but using the 1 in 60 rule, a single degree of error means you're one mile off for every 60 miles the voyage is in length.  That's 60-70 miles off for crossing the Atlantic Ocean.  I'm not going to get out my calculator to figure the distance in parsecs in a 2 sub-sector voyage.

 

The Astronomicon is what,10k-20k light years from the Koronus Expanse?  And what are the other points of reference being used?  O, A, and B supergiants?  Combined, they're less than what, 0.01% of the known stars in the galaxy?  And what if none of the known ones are visible from your destination, and that seems likely a good amount of the time.

 

Lines of longitude were divided into minutes and seconds.  The degrees alone were not accurate enough.  Timing was all-important.  I really can't imagine that will change in interstellar navigation, but become even more important.

 

I don't like to overly complicate my games.  But, I like to involve as many players (and NPCs) as I can in important aspects of a game session.  So I have astropaths as an integral part of the navigation team.






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