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Necrons Ally wirth all... problem?


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#1 booored

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:38 PM

So the scumbags at FFG not content with selling us a incomplete game that had the missing factions designed  but deciding to force us to wait for arguably two of the coolest factions in 40K... they also gave us a big fat teaser for the the new factions and included their deck building rules one of the rule books. (man two rule books is retarded)



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The Necrons, with their dark possession abilities, are able to utilize non-loyal, nonsignature units from the seven core factions on the wheel. The Tyranids represent an outside threat that aligns with no one, and they seek to devour all in their path

 

Dose this worry anyone else? The necros can cherry pick the cards from ALL factions? Dosn't that mean they will always have a much greater choice of pool.. and therefor the best options for deck building? They are still lmiited to 1 ally as far as I can tell, but they can basicaly pick ANY of them, there is no weight to this choice. Necrons choosing Tau have the exact same options as Elder choosing Tau... yet they have ALL the factions to pick from?

 

I just can not see how this can possibly be balanced. Deck building is all about choice and finding clever synergies or combos between cards. The larger the pool, the more likly you are to find something unexpected and hard top counter... So Necros will always have the largest pool and the greatest opportunity for deck builders to make something worthwhile.

 

I mean this seams really strange, imo, ALL the factions should have been like this. 

 

As for Tyrinids being a mono-faction... it is the exact same problem but reverse! 


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#2 Jvirtue55

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:06 PM

It just means that they can make the nids super powerful cause you don't have to worry about the cards being used by other factions or them bringing in cards

With the Necrons I'm sure they will be good but until we see all the cards that they can splash and how it helps them I would not say they are already broken

As someone who works with mentally disabled kids you can probably find better word then retarded. It's really offensive and I'm sure you can come up with something better.

When you think of using retarded think of being in a room with parents to kids who are severely mentally disabled pretty much retarded, as you put it and tell them there kid is retarded when you can do be one of those parents and not get upset or hurt then start using that word till then try something new. You are smart enough to play these games you are smart enough, to find something better to use.

And I really like the two book ideas.
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#3 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:12 PM

You lost me at "scumbags."

0/10
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#4 booored

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:13 PM

It just means that they can make the nids super powerful cause you don't have to worry about the cards being used by other factions or them bringing in cards

With the Necrons I'm sure they will be good but until we see all the cards that they can splash and how it helps them I would not say they are already broken


We know that they will have access to the entire card pool of any faction they ally with.. just exactly the same as the other factions have.. but more options.. how can this be anything but better?

As for mono-faction deck.. they can be ok sometimes.. but this will require serious "deck construction" to occour AT FFG itself.. out of the hands of the players. For starters the pool will be tiny, not even including that they can not splash. So as you say teh cards need to be powerful.. but how will that speak to the future once the pool grows and they have all these ubr cards hanging about that are disproportional to the other cards... or they do not do that and they are ******* weak as ****.

I dunno.. this has me very concerned.
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#5 SeerMagic

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:23 PM

What are you 12?

 

1) Everyone who's bought games with the new 2 rulebook thing FFG is doing, knows it's much better than their old rulebooks.

2) They can only use units


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#6 FiendishDevil

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:29 PM

There will likely be a mechanic to deck building for these non-standard factions.

 

Note Non-Loyal, Non-Signature. This means the strongest and most faction-true units will not be playable in Necron deck.

 

I don't know anything about the 40k universe, but I'm guessing for example the Eldar (elves right?), well you probably can play their 3 cost Eldar lance trooper, but  you won't be able to use their 6 cost Eldar dragon templar. Or you can use the Dark Eldar minion bot, but not the Dark Eldar succubus engine. (pardon the fake unit names)

 

Tyranids probably can only build mono-faction because they will have some crazy "Play from enemy graveyard" mechanic or some very unique graveyard mechanic.



#7 booored

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:30 PM

1) Everyone who's bought games with the new 2 rulebook thing FFG is doing, knows it's much better than their old rulebooks.

2 rule books is stupid. Rules should be localised not spread out. It is a terrible idea to make the game more accessible to idiot. With the FAQ you will have 3 completely separate locations to look for rules. Just stupid.
 

2) They can only use units


I do not think this will make much of a difference. You have to think about longevity of the game. The pool size is what is important not the type of card in the pool.

Note Non-Loyal, Non-Signature. This means the strongest and most faction-true units will not be playable in Necron deck.


yeah that is the same restriction on any faction.

Edited by booored, 01 August 2014 - 06:30 PM.

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#8 FiendishDevil

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:34 PM

Living card game needs a living rulebook  ;)



#9 rapatpamp

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:38 PM

I smell a troll. Honestly you don't even know the rules to Necrons and Tyranids yet and complaining. I mean come on all of the other LCG's that FFG produce are great and I think this one will be as well. It seems you want to argue about things that you don't know about yet. Look at it this way there are 7 factions in the starter if they added 2 more (to 9) then the card pool would be limited even more. Also the 2 rulebooks work well , all they did was split 1 large book into 2 so it's really the same. I agree as I have a 12 year old and he argues about things he doesn't know about as well. Calm down it's only a game and if you don't like the design decisions then speak with your wallet (don't buy it) and not with nasty words. Just my 2 cents.


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#10 booored

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:42 PM

I want to talk about it.. no one has even bothered to try and give any attempt at a thoughtful answer. Sure if you do not have one then fine, but if no one has them.. again.. that IS a problem.

What are your thoughts as to how a faction with a massively larger card pool can possibly be a good thing in a card game.. and blind faith in FFG doesn't count.. you need to use reasoning.
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#11 rapatpamp

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:31 PM

My reasoning is WAITING for the rules. Until then you have no idea what they will be like. Honestly I play Necrons in the TT game and there may a mechanic like MSS that allows you to play another factions unit then it dies at the end of turn but I don't know because the rules AREN'T OUT YET lol. And if you want awnsers , from a developer no less , then calling them names isn't the way to go. I don't like all the LCG's but they aren't bad so I do have faith. If they mess it up then I'll join in but until then I'll enjoy the now not complain about what's in 6 months from now.


Edited by rapatpamp, 01 August 2014 - 07:32 PM.

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#12 ktom

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:38 PM

What are your thoughts as to how a faction with a massively larger card pool can possibly be a good thing in a card game.. and blind faith in FFG doesn't count.. you need to use reasoning.

 

Well sure, it's a potential problem. However, I'd say there are also potential balances:

 

1. This is a "meta" balance to be sure, but one of the primary objections to a few of the older LCGs at this point is that the card pools are too big. People playing AGoT I have talked to have been asking for rotation for at least two years now. People playing Netrunner I have talked to look at the steady increase of additional cards as something that can only go on for so long before rotation is needed. This complaint isn't just because they think it's a barrier to getting new people into the games (they do); it also creates a certain limitation in deck building because there are too many options to consider all at once. There is a certain "analysis paralysis" when you are dealing with an excessively large card pool. Necrons, with access to non-loyal, non-signature units from all factions, might end up offering so many options that players have a hard time bringing Necron decks into a satisfactory focus. The larger the card pool, the more diluted the deck's identity tends to be without self-imposed deck building limitations. In trying to do everything, they end up doing nothing well.

 

2. In a similar fashion, I'd have to say that based on the faction previews we have seen so far, having access to the "best" non-loyal, non-signature cards from every faction all at once doesn't really worry me too much because it doesn't look like it would be very easy to create synergy in an eight-faction deck. As nice as Space Marine #1 and Dark Eldar #2 might be as individual cards, it seems like they could end up being two really nice cars that you can't drive at the same time when in a deck together. It's true in almost every game I have ever played: throwing all of the power cards together does not automatically make a great deck because those power cards don't often "play nice" together.

 

Now, being able to, essentially, build a 4-faction deck (3 adjacent factions that presumably have some synergy because of their placement on the wheel, plus the Necron warlord and signature squad) is a little worrisome. Would anyone ever NOT play Necrons if the, say, Dark Eldar-Chaos-Ork or Marine-Tau-Eldar synergy ends up being that good? But that's a different question than "Necrons are bad for the game because their card pool is essentially 8x the size of all other factions."

 

3. Also, as others seem to have hinted at, we don't necessarily know what additional deck building rules will be included in the Necron/Tyranid expansion. The Necron's could be balanced by a rule that allows only 1 copy of a non-Necron card by title in a deck. Tyranids might be balanced by being allowed to have 4-5 copies of certain cards. While not a particularly satisfying answer, we have to remember that all we have to shape and define this problem at this point is incomplete information from a teaser for a game we haven't actually played yet. Look at the tease one way and it's concerning, look at it another and it's hard to get too worked up over the purposefully inciting, incomplete information.

 

4. We also don't know what the Necron warlord is going to look like. It would be very easy to do something like give the warlord a Forced Reaction so that it takes damage each time you put a non-Necron unit into play with an affiliation that you don't already have in play or in your discard pile. If a warlord like that only has 6 HP, you're going to want to rethink taking units from more than 2 or 3 factions. Or perhaps the warlord lowers the ATK or HP of non-Necron units you control. Or increases their cost. Or all sorts of other things. The "scumbags at FFG" have shown some creativity finding balance that way in the past -- to varying degrees of success, to be sure, but there is a lot of gamespace for them to work with.

 

 

So yeah, I'll agree it's something to watch, and something that could get out of hand if not handle properly. But to a certain extent, we have to trust the "scumbags at FFG" to handle it properly - otherwise, what are we doing here?


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#13 Darik

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:30 PM

It could be brutal with Nevrom zombies everywhere. But what if the Necron Warlord starts the game bloodied? Or maybe his starting hand size is zero? Or some other terrible drawback? Are you willing to make that trade off? I think if it like the GRNDL identity for the Weyland Consortium corporation in Android: Netrunner. It starts with 10 credits, twice as much as any other faction, but begins the game with a point of bad publicity. Is it worth it?

#14 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:50 PM

I want to talk about it.. no one has even bothered to try and give any attempt at a thoughtful answer. Sure if you do not have one then fine, but if no one has them.. again.. that IS a problem.What are your thoughts as to how a faction with a massively larger card pool can possibly be a good thing in a card game.. and blind faith in FFG doesn't count.. you need to use reasoning.


Why should anyone bother giving a thoughtful answer to an unthoughtful post?
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#15 ktom

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:53 PM

Why should anyone bother giving a thoughtful answer to an unthoughtful post?

 

Hmm. So what does that say about those of us who did give a thoughtful answer...?  :blink:



#16 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:00 PM

Hmm. So what does that say about those of us who did give a thoughtful answer...?  :blink:

 

Sadly, it means that you were successfully baited by a troll. You're certainly welcome to respond however you see fit, wherever you see fit, but I hope you will realize sooner rather than later that you're arguing on uneven grounds. As thoughtful as your post was, booored will never be capable of responding in kind.


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#17 ktom

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:16 PM

Well, I know you speak from experience there, so I won't get defensive.

 

And no, I wasn't thinking of it as an argument and don't expect or need a response.

 

That said, I think that if anyone other than booored has posted something that said, "Hey, I know it might be a little early for this, but I'm a little concerned that the Necrons might unbalance the game before it even ships because it looks to me like it will have access to 8x the units that the other factions have. Is that something to be worried about? Is it something that can be balanced? Is it even a mechanic the game needs? What do people think?", the topic would have been seen as worthy of discussion.



#18 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:25 PM

Sure, that would have been a perfectly reasonable way of expressing the same sentiment, without the OP confusing his own misguided opinions for cold hard fact.

 

If you want to treat this thread as a venue for discussing that very same topic, by all means, go for it. I think it's a valid concern - to a point - though I myself would only echo what others have already said: let's wait and see what happens. As a caveat, just don't expect much in the way of thoughtful debate from certain posters. 


Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 02 August 2014 - 03:37 PM.

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#19 booored

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:24 PM

1. This is a "meta" balance to be sure, but one of the primary objections to a few of the older LCGs at this point is that the card pools are too big. People playing AGoT I have talked to have been asking for rotation for at least two years now. People playing Netrunner I have talked to look at the steady increase of additional cards as something that can only go on for so long before rotation is needed. This complaint isn't just because they think it's a barrier to getting new people into the games (they do);


I know what you are saying here, in fact I made massive waves about this in Call of Cthulhu a while back. The cycling system you seen in many CCG games (like MTG for example) keeps the pool in a smaller more thematic bubble that, most importantly allows new players to just jump right in with out needing to collect a zillion cards.

The barrier to new players is huge, especially in games that have been out for a while. In CoC it takes hours just to read a single faction, let alone be at a level when you can read a card and remember another card it will sync with. New players are at a huge disadvantage, and that dosn't even count the cost of getting the cards to use in your pool.

Call of Cthulhu is using intentional powercreep to do this. They switched to just releasing deluxe edition (starting with Seekers) and the cards in those packs are good.. I mean REALLY good. Creating a kind of break in the pools. So while like any LCG all cards are legal you can not make very competitive decks with just the new cards, and as more cards of this level are released the older cards are getting further and further separated be a divide.
 

it also creates a certain limitation in deck building because there are too many options to consider all at once. There is a certain "analysis paralysis" when you are dealing with an excessively large card pool.


This supposed limitation in deck building is just simply not true. "Analysis paralysis" is a real thing, though the term is usually used in boardgame, wargame, etc circles to describe "time". Taking to long to make a decision in in a turn based situation while everyone waits.

Deck construction is a solo endeavour. Saying the game suffers form the card combinations being to complex is ridicules to me, that is like saying an author would be able to write better books if there was less words in the English language. These game reward knowledge of the game and skill of playing. Sure the large pool is harder for players to be good at, but guess what the good side of that is that is makes the game harder for players to be good at.

Depth of card pool and player knowledge and skill is what elevates these games form causal ******* about to extremely deep and rewarding games that only the skilled excel in.
 

Necrons, with access to non-loyal, non-signature units from all factions, might end up offering so many options that players have a hard time bringing Necron decks into a satisfactory focus. The larger the card pool, the more diluted the deck's identity tends to be without self-imposed deck building limitations. In trying to do everything, they end up doing nothing well.


Again, I simply do not agree with this. As the card pool grows the options increase. Any boon to any race is a potential boon to Necrons. They will have the largest pool, and the widest options. In the early days this will not be to good for them, but as tine goes by they are the ones that will eventually rise to the top. Skilled players, and by skilled I mean pilot and constructors, will have an advantage because they have a larger pool. Just as in aGoT if you play someone with a full pool vs a player with the entire pool, if the larger pool player is any good at the game he should have a huge advantage in his deck designs.
 

2. In a similar fashion, I'd have to say that based on the faction previews we have seen so far, having access to the "best" non-loyal, non-signature cards from every faction all at once doesn't really worry me too much because it doesn't look like it would be very easy to create synergy in an eight-faction deck. As nice as Space Marine #1 and Dark Eldar #2 might be as individual cards, it seems like they could end up being two really nice cars that you can't drive at the same time when in a deck together. It's true in almost every game I have ever played: throwing all of the power cards together does not automatically make a great deck because those power cards don't often "play nice" together.


I have heard a few others say this kind of thing "having access to the "best" non-loyal, non-signature cards from every faction all at once doesn't really worry me" Still you have to remember this is nearly the same restriction on any of the factions. If I go Ork, I can not take SM signature or loyal cards either.

The cards are designed to work in tandem across the factions. Dark Elder has some cards that work nicely with Elder and with Chaos. Part of the decision making will be to choose between tose factions. The necrons do nto have to. They pick both and get the best of both worlds as they do nto need to chose between which effect is better.
 

Now, being able to, essentially, build a 4-faction deck (3 adjacent factions that presumably have some synergy because of their placement on the wheel, plus the Necron warlord and signature squad) is a little worrisome. Would anyone ever NOT play Necrons if the, say, Dark Eldar-Chaos-Ork or Marine-Tau-Eldar synergy ends up being that good? But that's a different question than "Necrons are bad for the game because their card pool is essentially 8x the size of all other factions."
 
3. Also, as others seem to have hinted at, we don't necessarily know what additional deck building rules will be included in the Necron/Tyranid expansion. The Necron's could be balanced by a rule that allows only 1 copy of a non-Necron card by title in a deck. Tyranids might be balanced by being allowed to have 4-5 copies of certain cards. While not a particularly satisfying answer, we have to remember that all we have to shape and define this problem at this point is incomplete information from a teaser for a game we haven't actually played yet. Look at the tease one way and it's concerning, look at it another and it's hard to get too worked up over the purposefully inciting, incomplete information.


So what? We shouldn't talk about it then? What is wrong with discussion?

Besides we do not really know if for example the "one faction" thing is still in effect. Can they take from all at once, or only one at once.

The real limiting factor is the support cards. Events, HQ stuff.. that sort of thing, as they can not be taken from the other factions. These necron cards will become backbone of any necron deck. The events, locations attachments all that stuff need to be good and I suspect could be the vast majority of the cards in the faction, as everything else can come from the other sets.

So the power of the necrons and their ability to function as a competitive deck will be directly linked to their Loyal, and support cards.
 

4. We also don't know what the Necron warlord is going to look like. It would be very easy to do something like give the warlord a Forced Reaction so that it takes damage each time you put a non-Necron unit into play with an affiliation that you don't already have in play or in your discard pile. If a warlord like that only has 6 HP, you're going to want to rethink taking units from more than 2 or 3 factions. Or perhaps the warlord lowers the ATK or HP of non-Necron units you control. Or increases their cost. Or all sorts of other things. The "scumbags at FFG" have shown some creativity finding balance that way in the past -- to varying degrees of success, to be sure, but there is a lot of gamespace for them to work with.


It doesn't matter what the warlord is. A new one will be out soon, and then another and then another. In fact as it is a deluxe expansion.. I would say 2 maybe 3 will be in that box alone.

It is all about longevity, not about the now, but about what the rules will allow in the long term once the game is at least 2 years old, when the pool is large.

The beauty of card games is that the interactions are nearly chaotic, no designer can predict what some legend deck builder will come up with. This is why band lists and restricted stuff exist. You have to be VERY careful in designing your framework and think about what the design space can mean in the long run. Because some freak deck god will find that problem and exploit the **** out of it.
 
 

"scumbags at FFG"


DLC, Expansions... money grubbing bull. The Necrons and the Tyrinids are designed, they even have teh rules done is my bet. This isn't some after thought stuff they put on latter due to demand or something. This is something they though.. "Hey, now we have a finished game we can make more money if we release this part of it latter as a way to inject more users in after the initial drop off from the cult of the new".

Selling incomplete games is a curse on gamers.

It is a scumbag tactical money move and shouldn't be respected. Companies need to be called out on it more.

DLC_2381c6_1915467.jpg

It could be brutal with Nevrom zombies everywhere. But what if the Necron Warlord starts the game bloodied? Or maybe his starting hand size is zero? Or some other terrible drawback? Are you willing to make that trade off? I think if it like the GRNDL identity for the Weyland Consortium corporation in Android: Netrunner. It starts with 10 credits, twice as much as any other faction, but begins the game with a point of bad publicity. Is it worth it?


It doesn't matter. Warlords will be coming out of our ears soon. In fact with the normal release schedual and a large part of each pack being unable to be used in deck this games pool will be growing pretty slow. We will have more warlods than we can use. GRNDL might have some problem (though it is has won its sahre of comps) but it doesn't matter as some other Wayland ID will be out soon and change the way wayland is built.

I think this is the most interesting part of this game, the amalgamation of Star Wars PoDs and Netrunner IDs. More than any other game the designers at FFG will be dictating the deck designs as the warlord is going to have such a impact on the deck function.

Edited by booored, 02 August 2014 - 06:29 PM.

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#20 Jvirtue55

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:30 PM

I did get a laugh from the chess game picture but we have to remember that ffgames is a company and there goal in the end is still to make money. So by your assessment all business are scumbags




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