1. This is a "meta" balance to be sure, but one of the primary objections to a few of the older LCGs at this point is that the card pools are too big. People playing AGoT I have talked to have been asking for rotation for at least two years now. People playing Netrunner I have talked to look at the steady increase of additional cards as something that can only go on for so long before rotation is needed. This complaint isn't just because they think it's a barrier to getting new people into the games (they do);
I know what you are saying here, in fact I made massive waves about this in Call of Cthulhu a while back. The cycling system you seen in many CCG games (like MTG for example) keeps the pool in a smaller more thematic bubble that, most importantly allows new players to just jump right in with out needing to collect a zillion cards.
The barrier to new players is huge, especially in games that have been out for a while. In CoC it takes hours just to read a single faction, let alone be at a level when you can read a card and remember another card it will sync with. New players are at a huge disadvantage, and that dosn't even count the cost of getting the cards to use in your pool.
Call of Cthulhu is using intentional powercreep to do this. They switched to just releasing deluxe edition (starting with Seekers) and the cards in those packs are good.. I mean REALLY good. Creating a kind of break in the pools. So while like any LCG all cards are legal you can not make very competitive decks with just the new cards, and as more cards of this level are released the older cards are getting further and further separated be a divide.
it also creates a certain limitation in deck building because there are too many options to consider all at once. There is a certain "analysis paralysis" when you are dealing with an excessively large card pool.
This supposed limitation in deck building is just simply not true. "Analysis paralysis" is a real thing, though the term is usually used in boardgame, wargame, etc circles to describe "time". Taking to long to make a decision in in a turn based situation while everyone waits.
Deck construction is a solo endeavour. Saying the game suffers form the card combinations being to complex is ridicules to me, that is like saying an author would be able to write better books if there was less words in the English language. These game reward knowledge of the game and skill of playing. Sure the large pool is harder for players to be good at, but guess what the good side of that is that is makes the game harder for players to be good at.
Depth of card pool and player knowledge and skill is what elevates these games form causal ******* about to extremely deep and rewarding games that only the skilled excel in.
Necrons, with access to non-loyal, non-signature units from all factions, might end up offering so many options that players have a hard time bringing Necron decks into a satisfactory focus. The larger the card pool, the more diluted the deck's identity tends to be without self-imposed deck building limitations. In trying to do everything, they end up doing nothing well.
Again, I simply do not agree with this. As the card pool grows the options increase. Any boon to any race is a potential boon to Necrons. They will have the largest pool, and the widest options. In the early days this will not be to good for them, but as tine goes by they are the ones that will eventually rise to the top. Skilled players, and by skilled I mean pilot and constructors, will have an advantage because they have a larger pool. Just as in aGoT if you play someone with a full pool vs a player with the entire pool, if the larger pool player is any good at the game he should have a huge advantage in his deck designs.
2. In a similar fashion, I'd have to say that based on the faction previews we have seen so far, having access to the "best" non-loyal, non-signature cards from every faction all at once doesn't really worry me too much because it doesn't look like it would be very easy to create synergy in an eight-faction deck. As nice as Space Marine #1 and Dark Eldar #2 might be as individual cards, it seems like they could end up being two really nice cars that you can't drive at the same time when in a deck together. It's true in almost every game I have ever played: throwing all of the power cards together does not automatically make a great deck because those power cards don't often "play nice" together.
I have heard a few others say this kind of thing "having access to the "best" non-loyal, non-signature cards from every faction all at once doesn't really worry me" Still you have to remember this is nearly the same restriction on any of the factions. If I go Ork, I can not take SM signature or loyal cards either.
The cards are designed to work in tandem across the factions. Dark Elder has some cards that work nicely with Elder and with Chaos. Part of the decision making will be to choose between tose factions. The necrons do nto have to. They pick both and get the best of both worlds as they do nto need to chose between which effect is better.
Now, being able to, essentially, build a 4-faction deck (3 adjacent factions that presumably have some synergy because of their placement on the wheel, plus the Necron warlord and signature squad) is a little worrisome. Would anyone ever NOT play Necrons if the, say, Dark Eldar-Chaos-Ork or Marine-Tau-Eldar synergy ends up being that good? But that's a different question than "Necrons are bad for the game because their card pool is essentially 8x the size of all other factions."
3. Also, as others seem to have hinted at, we don't necessarily know what additional deck building rules will be included in the Necron/Tyranid expansion. The Necron's could be balanced by a rule that allows only 1 copy of a non-Necron card by title in a deck. Tyranids might be balanced by being allowed to have 4-5 copies of certain cards. While not a particularly satisfying answer, we have to remember that all we have to shape and define this problem at this point is incomplete information from a teaser for a game we haven't actually played yet. Look at the tease one way and it's concerning, look at it another and it's hard to get too worked up over the purposefully inciting, incomplete information.
So what? We shouldn't talk about it then? What is wrong with discussion?
Besides we do not really know if for example the "one faction" thing is still in effect. Can they take from all at once, or only one at once.
The real limiting factor is the support cards. Events, HQ stuff.. that sort of thing, as they can not be taken from the other factions. These necron cards will become backbone of any necron deck. The events, locations attachments all that stuff need to be good and I suspect could be the vast majority of the cards in the faction, as everything else can come from the other sets.
So the power of the necrons and their ability to function as a competitive deck will be directly linked to their Loyal, and support cards.
4. We also don't know what the Necron warlord is going to look like. It would be very easy to do something like give the warlord a Forced Reaction so that it takes damage each time you put a non-Necron unit into play with an affiliation that you don't already have in play or in your discard pile. If a warlord like that only has 6 HP, you're going to want to rethink taking units from more than 2 or 3 factions. Or perhaps the warlord lowers the ATK or HP of non-Necron units you control. Or increases their cost. Or all sorts of other things. The "scumbags at FFG" have shown some creativity finding balance that way in the past -- to varying degrees of success, to be sure, but there is a lot of gamespace for them to work with.
It doesn't matter what the warlord is. A new one will be out soon, and then another and then another. In fact as it is a deluxe expansion.. I would say 2 maybe 3 will be in that box alone.
It is all about longevity, not about the now, but about what the rules will allow in the long term once the game is at least 2 years old, when the pool is large.
The beauty of card games is that the interactions are nearly chaotic, no designer can predict what some legend deck builder will come up with. This is why band lists and restricted stuff exist. You have to be VERY careful in designing your framework and think about what the design space can mean in the long run. Because some freak deck god will find that problem and exploit the **** out of it.
"scumbags at FFG"
DLC, Expansions... money grubbing bull. The Necrons and the Tyrinids are designed, they even have teh rules done is my bet. This isn't some after thought stuff they put on latter due to demand or something. This is something they though.. "Hey, now we have a finished game we can make more money if we release this part of it latter as a way to inject more users in after the initial drop off from the cult of the new".
Selling incomplete games is a curse on gamers.
It is a scumbag tactical money move and shouldn't be respected. Companies need to be called out on it more.
It could be brutal with Nevrom zombies everywhere. But what if the Necron Warlord starts the game bloodied? Or maybe his starting hand size is zero? Or some other terrible drawback? Are you willing to make that trade off? I think if it like the GRNDL identity for the Weyland Consortium corporation in Android: Netrunner. It starts with 10 credits, twice as much as any other faction, but begins the game with a point of bad publicity. Is it worth it?
It doesn't matter. Warlords will be coming out of our ears soon. In fact with the normal release schedual and a large part of each pack being unable to be used in deck this games pool will be growing pretty slow. We will have more warlods than we can use. GRNDL might have some problem (though it is has won its sahre of comps) but it doesn't matter as some other Wayland ID will be out soon and change the way wayland is built.
I think this is the most interesting part of this game, the amalgamation of Star Wars PoDs and Netrunner IDs. More than any other game the designers at FFG will be dictating the deck designs as the warlord is going to have such a impact on the deck function.
Edited by booored, 02 August 2014 - 06:29 PM.
"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"