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Loyalist Traitor Chapters


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#61 Robin Graves

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:37 AM

I also really liked The Unremembered Empire. It's Dan Abnett but it's not written the way he usually writes.

The Alpha legion are badass, (I loved that bith with Guilliman seeing a three headed hydra in a cracked window)

Lion el johnson is his usualy dickish self (that bit with the space wolves ritual dual made me laugh) and Nighthaunter is uber badass as some kind of daemonic batman.

 

The xanthites (and the Kabal for that matter) are doomed to failure. They will turn chaos against chaos, but they fail to notice chaos already fights chaos. (slaanesh vs khorne etc...) In fact chaos is so used to fighting itself that it can't be properly turned against itself or win so hard it ends up destroying itself. (I think that's the main reason why most of tzeentch plans disrupt each other) You can't turn what already has been turned.

 

This is possibly the reason GW retconned Mallal out of the chaos pantheon. There is no need for a chaos god who fights the other four, when those four are already fighting amongst themselves...



#62 Lynata

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 06:50 PM

This is possibly the reason GW retconned Mallal out of the chaos pantheon. There is no need for a chaos god who fights the other four, when those four are already fighting amongst themselves...

 

Out of curiosity, where exactly did the idea of Malal as a Chaos God come from? All I can find on the interwebs is a single short story in a Black Library publication, mention of two comic artists who supposedly came up with the concept and posted it as a fan submission, and a whooole lot of discussion on Lexicanum where people are like "he was in this source", followed by "actually I have that book and he's not in there" etc.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#63 Robin Graves

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 06:52 AM

He is mentioned in WHFRP 1st edition (page 210) : "Malal is a renegade chaos god, who turned against the others and is dedicated to their destruction. His followers, sometimes called the Doomed Ones, seek out and destroy the followers of the other chaos gods wherever they may be found."  Malal has a draconic face with curved horns and a humanoid body.

 

Where the idea of Malal came form is, i think, a few notes scrawled on a coaster after the GW guys had a few to many drinks in the pub. It is intresting that the WHFRPG book mentions both Khorne and Nurgle aswel but not Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

 

That concept of the Doomed ones would make a great cult in DH: the acolytes on a mission to destroy a chaos cult, run across another cult trying to do the same... will they team up or wipe both cults out?

 

Nobody expects the Chaos Inquisition!

 

 

A renegade chaos god? So he's chaos Lorenzo Lamas? :)


Edited by Robin Graves, 17 September 2014 - 06:53 AM.


#64 ThenDoctor

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 07:11 AM

That concept of the Doomed ones would make a great cult in DH: the acolytes on a mission to destroy a chaos cult, run across another cult trying to do the same... will they team up or wipe both cults out?

 

I believe the Phaeonite mentality encapsulates that motto in the Inquisition at least. I believe their the ones with the alternate rank in Radical's Handbook where you damn yourself to steel your body and mind against the Archenemy. Sin Eater I believe they're called.

 

Never team up with the enemy, they're the enemy for a reason. - Puritian motto

 

The enemy of my enemy can be an ally, for a time. - Radical motto


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I've made an expanded Divination table for Dark Heresy Second Edition.Find it here: 

 

http://community.fan...general-thread/


#65 Lynata

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:34 AM

He is mentioned in WHFRP 1st edition (page 210) : "Malal is a renegade chaos god, who turned against the others and is dedicated to their destruction. His followers, sometimes called the Doomed Ones, seek out and destroy the followers of the other chaos gods wherever they may be found."  Malal has a draconic face with curved horns and a humanoid body.

 

So this stems from back when the WHFB and the 40k worlds were supposed to exist in the same setting (I still like that idea btw) and information would carry over? Hmmh. Who made the link between Malal and Malice, though? Did anyone read that Black Library short story, by chance?

 

At times it's difficult to back-trace things like these as there's a lot of hearsay in the fandom...

 

Where the idea of Malal came form is, i think, a few notes scrawled on a coaster after the GW guys had a few to many drinks in the pub.

 

Allegedly it was two comic book authors, though that is just hearsay as well. But I assume they might have had a hand in the WFRP (I see lots of non-regular names in the credits), as this would explain how it got in there yet was forgotten when they changed teams?

 

Anyways, thanks for shedding some light onto this!  :)


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#66 Robin Graves

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:49 AM

I have heard that the Sons of malice renegade chapter were suposed to be follower of malal, but that's probably fan stuff.

 

WHFRPG was made late 80's around the time of warhammer 3'd edition (pre-army books, so very early stuff) You know, now i think of it, Malal could be mentioned in one of the old white dwarfs , they had comics like Thud the Barbarian. I'll have a look at them see, if i can turn anything up.

 

 

Glad to help. :)


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#67 Robin Graves

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 03:23 PM

Okay so i checked http://warhammer40k.....com/wiki/Malal, atleast they stated their sources. Btw i think the whole lexicanum discussion about Malal not apearing in said sources is because they mostly deal with his champions.

 

The way i see it, wikia is correct:  The concept of the Chaos God "Malal" was created by comics writers John Wagner and Alan Grant along with Malal's champion, Kaleb Daark. Allegedly the comic was canceled because of "creative differences" between the creators and Games Workshop. The first story was produced in 85 while WHFRPG was released a year later in 86. So as far as i'm concerened Malal is their baby.

 

I've checked some of the sources myself: whfrpg, white dwarf 83 (white dwarf 79 seems to be wrong somehow even tough WD83 mentionts it!), third citadel compendium. and they mention malal but mostly his champions. I don't have access to the other mentioned sources. Reading the comic does make it clear why Malal symbol is a black and white skull: it is actualy taken from kaleb daark's armor.

 

PS I've found the kaleb daark comic online:

http://www.solegends...comp3/index.htm

http://www.solegends...comp3077-01.htm

 

citcomp3077-01.jpg


Edited by Robin Graves, 17 September 2014 - 03:26 PM.

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#68 Lynata

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 04:31 PM

Thanks, the effort is appreciated! :)

Always glad to see someone else with reaaally old WD's, too! ^^

 

[edit] Hey, that website seems to be rather cool in general...


Edited by Lynata, 17 September 2014 - 04:33 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#69 javcs

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 08:05 PM

 

That concept of the Doomed ones would make a great cult in DH: the acolytes on a mission to destroy a chaos cult, run across another cult trying to do the same... will they team up or wipe both cults out?

 

I believe the Phaeonite mentality encapsulates that motto in the Inquisition at least. I believe their the ones with the alternate rank in Radical's Handbook where you damn yourself to steel your body and mind against the Archenemy. Sin Eater I believe they're called.

 

Never team up with the enemy, they're the enemy for a reason. - Puritian motto

 

The enemy of my enemy can be an ally, for a time. - Radical motto

 

Nope. Phaenonites are the techno-heretical offshoot of the Xanthites. Their exclusive alt rank is the Maletek Stalker, and they've a unique elite advance as well. The Phaenonites do not believe in worshipping gods - any gods, be they of Chaos/the Warp or the God-Emperor. They are more opposed to Chaos gods and the worship thereof than the God-Emperor and worshipping him, but that's largely because the Chaos-worshippers would destroy mankind.

They are Excommunicate Traitoris.

 

 

Sin Eater is the alt rank of the Oblationists. They accept damnation upon themselves to wield Chaos artifacts and sorceries.

The difference between Oblationists and Xanthites is that the Xanthite believes he can utilize certain powers and types of artifacts without automatically condemning himself and his soul if he is sufficiently strong-willed, careful, and deliberate in their use, whereas the Oblationist believes himself condemned before he starts (they go through a ritual and everything), dead before the eyes of the Emperor, and so uses those same powers and artifacts in the service of Mankind, and believes anyone who thinks they can use such things without automatically condemning themselves in the Emperor's Sight is a fool.

The Oblationists have not been declared Excommunicate Traitoris.



#70 Ramellan

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:07 AM

They should be, if you ask me. People like the Xanthites and Oblationists will always do more harm than good. Yes, technically, it Is possible to harness the power of Chaos and, through supreme willpower and unwavering faith, turn it to your will. BUT, the number of people who can actually manage to do this even once, not to even consider those who do it repeatedly, is so small compared to the number of those who attempt it. 9 times out of 10 (or is that 99 out of 100) such attempts will backfire on the person, and backfire horrifically, sometimes creating whole new threats to the Imperium that must be dealt with. Worse still, every Xanthite who actually succeeds in their efforts will only inspire more people to try and do the unthinkable, most of whom will never be able to handle the unreal attentions of those they call forth. In short, it is not worth it.

I'm no Puritan, but I know the slippery slope of justifying madness when I see it.

#71 Robin Graves

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 03:21 PM

Something to think about:

Both the leader of the space wolves and ultramarines wield weapons taken from chaos champions. And that's just the ones i know of! How many more chapters or individual marines wield reporposed chaos weapons? How long will it take for them to become corrupted?

 

Tought for today: Trust no one, not even yourself. It is better to die in vain, than live as an abomination.



#72 Ramellan

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:16 PM

Don't want this page to die, so I'm gonna add a little something I just learned about the Exorcists. Finished reading the Deathwatch book by Steve Parker, and I noticed some irregularities between the effect of the Exorcist in that book (named Rauth) and the listed properties of Blanks in general. I mentioned earlier that I thought the Exorcists were an Imperial experiment to make Blank Marines, and their lack of a warp signature seemed to support that. But there does seem to be something missing. As I recall, Blanks, Pariahs, Untouchables (whatever you want to call them) are supposed to disrupt the psychic abilities of nearby psykers. But the Librarian who first noticed Rauth's unique trait didn't seem to have any adverse reaction to his presence. He never has. Furthermore, Blanks are supposed to have this feeling of "wrongness" about them, that puts everyone around them on edge. Rauth is certainly an off-putting character, but looking through the book again, that seems more the result of his personality rather than some innate quality of his condition.

I think it was Lynata who said that manually producing Blanks didn't seem to be possible. And maybe these guys aren't true blanks. The book described Rauth's use as more towards an invisible soldier, who no psychic foe could see coming, than some natural counter to psychics. But if that's the case, it does leave one more question on my mind:

If Blanks are so rare, and can't be artificially created, then where the heck did the Sisters of Silence come from? Y'know, that small army of all-female Pariahs the Emperor used in the Great Crusade? What's up with them?

#73 Robin Graves

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 08:44 AM

The Pariah Gene is an aberrant mutation of the human genetic code which results in the existence of beings colloquially known as "Blanks" and "Pariahs," for those individuals in whom the mutant gene is dominant. These mutants have little to no psychic existence in the Warp, thus lacking what others would consider a soul. As a consequence, these individuals radiate a sense of unnaturalness and unease that is unnerving to other living creatures and can be painful or even lethal to psychically-sensitive beings. The Pariah Gene is usually passed on naturally through reproduction, but also occurs through random mutation, just like the gene or gene complex that produces psykers. The Pariah Gene is, however,much more rare than the psyker mutation and Blanks make up an infinitesimal proportion of the human population galaxy-wide. It is estimated that in the population of a medium-sized planet populated by billions of people, there may be only a half-dozen or so Blanks. Most of those affected by the gene die young as the palpable aura of revulsion that surrounds them makes them reviled by others, outcasts within their society, or leads to their outright murder long before they reach full maturity.

 

You said it, small army (do we even have numbers for them?). The Emperor, with him being the alpha psyker of the entire human race would have little problem in scouring the segmentum solar (and later the rest of the galaxy) for pariahs. (kinda like proffesor X with cerebro) My bet is he just went around collecting them.



#74 Lynata

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 09:43 AM

My bet is he just went around collecting them.

 

Technology may have also been much more advanced back then, allowing for widespread detection equipment. I recall a rare (by M41) "psyocular" mentioned in the WH codex as a means to detect psychic activity without being a psyker yourself, so perhaps it or something like it might also be capable of finding Blanks?

 

Although it's still a bit strange in that the Emperor only had Terra and the Sol system at the beginning, and certainly it would take a lot of time to collect all those Blanks and train and equip them as an army. So another possibility could be that perhaps they were cloned, much like the Primarchs? Back then, perhaps the Emperor might have thought he did not need more Blanks than these - whilst later, the ability to produce them artificially got lost during the chaos of the Heresy (explaining why the Imperium does not "build" them anymore).

 

Also, it should not be forgotten how, over time, a lot of "alternate" uses for Blanks popped up. Whilst perhaps back then all those who were discovered were funnelled into the SoS, nowadays you have orgs like the Adeptus Assassinorum and the Inquisition recruiting these individuals for their special ability.

 

 

... well, or the author who came up with these Sisters of Silence just didn't care a lot for the rarity bit. Consistency isn't Black Library's strong suit, and it is notable how, to my knowledge, Games Workshop has to this day ignored the very existence of this army for any products beyond the Horus Heresy novel series, not even providing a hint about them in studio material like rulebooks and codices. This may very well be a hint to a certain resistance/reluctance to "include" this idea into the interpretation of the setting pushed by studio fluff.


Edited by Lynata, 12 October 2014 - 09:45 AM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#75 javcs

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:32 PM

Frankly, I'd almost rather the Exorcists really be an Alpha Legion front - all those supposed extra casualties aren't actually dead, they're just quietly inducted and transferred into Alpha Legion proper.



#76 Morangias

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:15 AM

All Chapters are suspect of secretly being Alpha Legion ;)


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#77 Robin Graves

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:50 AM

We are all squidward- err i mean Alpharius!

 

We are all Alpharius!






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