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Loyalist Traitor Chapters


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#1 Ramellan

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:24 AM

My group was having a talk about which chapter our Black Shield came from (player has left that undecided for now) and naturally after a minute we were talking about the traitor legions. While his chapter is still undecided, I went ahead and thought about Renegade chapters, cursed chapters, and after a moment, chapters that are widely suspected of being drawn from the traitor legions.

(I do not count the Storm Wardens myself)
Minotaurs: suspected World Eaters
Sons of Antaeus: suspected Death Guard
Blood Ravens: suspected Thousand Sons
Red Scorpions: suspected Emperor's Children (did not know this until last night. O.o)

Am I missing any? Cause if not then I can't help but notice that these are all the 4 chapters that are each dedicated to one of the Chaos Gods. Haven't found any sign of loyal black legion, night lords, iron warriors, or alpha legion. 1d4 chan had a home brew chapter, The Knights Repentant, for the Word Bearers, which I thought was pretty cool.

I had my own idea for a loyalist traitor chapter, and I'll share it in my next post, but first I wanna hear your thoughts. I know there must be other threads out there about this but I'm too lazy to look through 50 pages for them. So, loyalist traitors. For, or against? Ideas for the legions without suspected chapters?
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#2 Ramellan

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:51 PM

Hehe, apparently I have a knack for picking topics that people are not that interested in. Funnily enough, I'm rather split about the subject myself. I mean, I do like the idea do the Blood Ravens (thousand sons story was so sad in my eyes, they deserved some chance at redemption) and the Minotaurs too (when I read what Angron went through, I just can't help but wish the Emperor had found some other way to help his people). As far as the Sons of Antaeus go, I'm okay with that (No real love for Mortarion, but Nathaniel Garro was a cool guy. They could call themselves the Sons of Garro when asked about their primarch), plus there is a story in Deathwatch: Xenos Hunters that deals with a Kill Team made up of cursed chapters, and one of the Sons was in it. Not too shabby, totally recommend the book.

For all that though, I find that I don't really want the Red Scorpions to be from the Emp's Children. I mean, I feel for Fulgrim, but I like the Scorpions as they are. It's weird, but maybe it would be too much if every Traitor Legion had some good guys out there too. It's pretty much said that there were loyalists in all of the legions that joined Chaos, but most of them were either wiped out or died out afterwards. I have mixed feelings over the whole thing, because normally I Love redemption stories.

I know I said I'd share my idea for a loyalist traitor chapter in this post, but since no one has posted anything I'll give it a little while longer. In the meantime, I have another question. I've heard of named loyalists from the heresy in the thousands sons, world eaters, iron warriors, death guard, Emp's children, and the Black Legion. And of course there's the alpha legion (or is there?) but not of any from the Night lords or Word Bearers. Does anyone know of groups from their legions that wouldn't turn from the Emperor?

#3 RogalDorn01

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

I play blood ravens in the TT and I have always gone with the Theory that they are Thousand Sons.  They have dropped so many hints at this point it's frankly ridiculous.  The horus heresy black library books even talk about the company of the Thousand sons that use a Raven with a blood drop motif to denote their discipline


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#4 Ramellan

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:00 AM

(Omg, a post! Finally!)

Okay, so I almost backed out of posting this. I had a few second thoughts, worried that people would think it was stupid, or unoriginal, or just criticize the heck out of it. Then I had a third thought (what the heck do I care what anonymous haters think of me?) and so here is my very rough, incomplete idea of a loyalist chapter for the one and only Alpha Legion.... Or Are They?!

So everyone who's read a thing about the AL know that their secrecy, endless scheming, and backstabbing ways make even the Dark Angels look like noobs. They're so mysterious that even we, the readers, have no idea which side they're really on.

The thing is, for all that they may be on our side or not, I haven't read that much fluff taking place in the present time to support it. Which makes sense, in a way, even if they were, they couldn't do anything to let others know it, or no chaos group would ever let them in again to spy on them, they'd have to be in disguise 24/7. Which is (duh) where my chapter comes from.

When the AL comes across some intelligence that needs to acted on, but for whatever reason they can't slip the information out or sabotage it in time without out revealing themselves, then they can contact the thousand brothers they have disguised as a loyalist chapter and let them deal with it. Hey, if the Blood Ravens could do it, why not the AL? Isn't spying and tricking people their thing?

"The Viper Legion, a member of the Astartes Praeses, has patrolled the borders of the Eye of Terror for long millennia. Among the other Chapters whose honor it is to stand this eternal post, the Viper Legion is known often for appearing where they are least expected, their companies appearing from the warp only hours after the forces of chaos erupt near a world, or sometimes even beforehand to prepare an unsuspecting world for an assault that comes soon after. Some members of the Inquisition and other Chapters of the Astartes have raised questions over how these Angels manage to anticipate the actions of madmen so consistently, but the Viper Legion is frustratingly vague on answers. For now, the many lives their methods have saved has kept the worst of the storm at bay."

#5 RogalDorn01

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:26 PM

What is the astartes Praeses?

 

Also, it would have to be a pretty old chapter for them to not have reliable records that the inquisition could verify regarding their founding.  Repainting your armor can work out ok in the short term, but in the end they would need some real records out there if the inquisition is questioning them.

 

Are you saying that this force would be a splinter from the original legion that has existed since the heresy and has disguised itself as essentially a 2nd founding chapter?


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#6 Ramellan

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:44 PM

The Astartes Praeses are a group of 20 Chapters whose mission it is to patrol the borders of the Eye of Terror. The Viper Legion is on the official list for them, but nothing about the chapter has been written and their name is just so perfect so I'm using them. A number of second founding chapters are a part of the Praeses (like the Excoriators) but even without that this is the Alpha Legion we're talking about. Forging documents to prove who they are should be child's play for them, and after that they just have to fight for a few thousand years to build up their rep.

I'm not sure if they are a splinter or a branch of the alpha legion. Since their story is still being written in the Horus Heresy novels, I might leave that part open. If the AL are mostly still secretly loyal, then the rest of the legion feeds them intelligence about the rest of the bad guys so they can stop them. If most of them have fallen, then I've thought about making the Vipers an over-strength chapter, with some of their excess members continuing the incredibly hazardous work of spying on Chaos.

Edited by Ramellan, 04 August 2014 - 02:44 PM.


#7 filliman

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:50 PM

First: Haters gonna Hate. Second: I really like this Viper Legion. If they spy on Chaos, could it be said there might be a few in the Screaming Vortex? My BC group needs a good scare, they've become too trusting of others. Also, no worries about people thinking your chapter is too stupid. I went and made my own 2nd Legion a few weeks ago. So there, eat that special snowflakery, haters! Also, what are the Storm Wardens' suspected traitor origins?


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#8 Calgor Grim

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:52 AM

I play blood ravens in the TT and I have always gone with the Theory that they are Thousand Sons.  They have dropped so many hints at this point it's frankly ridiculous.  The horus heresy black library books even talk about the company of the Thousand sons that use a Raven with a blood drop motif to denote their discipline

 

There are a number of references though which could link their chapter to a few others. Also from what I heard somewhere, didn't the author of much of the DoW books which draw similarities between them and Thousand Sons have issues with his factual and fluffy accuracy? I haven't flicked through them myself, just going on what I've read.


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#9 Ramellan

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:38 AM

First: Haters gonna Hate. Second: I really like this Viper Legion. If they spy on Chaos, could it be said there might be a few in the Screaming Vortex? My BC group needs a good scare, they've become too trusting of others. Also, no worries about people thinking your chapter is too stupid. I went and made my own 2nd Legion a few weeks ago. So there, eat that special snowflakery, haters! Also, what are the Storm Wardens' suspected traitor origins?


Thank you for the support. Some people thought the Storm Wardens are World Eaters because they're color scheme is close to the pre-heresy legion one, and they have that whole preference for close combat. But the Minotaurs fill that position for me. I kinda like them as anonymous, a Chapter set adrift on the seas of Fate, their destiny writ only by the strength of their arms and the purity of their spirits. ;)

As for the Vortex, go right ahead. If there was one thing I was worried about (besides the whole true fate of the Alpha Legion) it was that as Praeses they might be stuck in their area. But hey, they're over strength (or have a legion backing them) so it shouldn't be too hard at all for them to travel around the segmentum.

Ooh, there's a thought. In true AL style, to conceal their numbers and work unhindered by their post around the Eye, the Viper Legion maintains a few company "doubles": multiple copies of their tactical companies (complete with identical names on their rosters), which travel beyond the bounds of their domain when intelligence tells them of a threat in the wider imperium. If pressed, the companies explain their presence as simply "wishing to put their vast experience at the disposal of the Imperium they all serve."

(I wonder if I should post this on /tg. Think they'd take to it?)

#10 analivia

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:58 AM

have you created that on your own? jogos de moto


Edited by analivia, 08 August 2014 - 03:17 AM.


#11 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:25 AM

 

First: Haters gonna Hate. Second: I really like this Viper Legion. If they spy on Chaos, could it be said there might be a few in the Screaming Vortex? My BC group needs a good scare, they've become too trusting of others. Also, no worries about people thinking your chapter is too stupid. I went and made my own 2nd Legion a few weeks ago. So there, eat that special snowflakery, haters! Also, what are the Storm Wardens' suspected traitor origins?


Thank you for the support. Some people thought the Storm Wardens are World Eaters because they're color scheme is close to the pre-heresy legion one, and they have that whole preference for close combat. But the Minotaurs fill that position for me. I kinda like them as anonymous, a Chapter set adrift on the seas of Fate, their destiny writ only by the strength of their arms and the purity of their spirits. ;)

 

 

Their colour scheme isn't really very close. There is blue on their armour.

My counterargument is that given (a) their combat doctrine focuses on mechanised mobility and swordsmanship at close quarters, (b) their culture is clannish, philosphical, cynical but relatively welcoming, and © they use the same damn heraldic device in a different colour, they're white scar successors.

 

The Cursed foundings aren't traitor chapters precisely. The people responsible for the founding used (probably) traitor geneseed to create the Sons of Antaeus and Minotaurs (note that the latter were bezerkerish in their original incarnation, Forgeworld notes 'in-character' that there have been several chapters with this name or similar). They aren't, however, from the traitor legions per se, any more than a black templar is from the imperial fists.

 

The red scorpions, again, aren't a 'loyalist traitors' because they were put together by inquisitorial order with a focus on maintaining purity of geneseed wrt tyranids. The Inquisitor Lord in Anphelion's memos essentially announce that he was involved in having them created. I can't see anything specifically to tie them to the Emperor's Children.

 

 

There are 'loyalist traitors' from every chapter, but often they were individuals - the knights errant, like garro, are a nice fitting place for this.

 

There is a sizeable force of loyalist iron warriors in Extermination, but I'm not sure how many of them survive that battle.

 

 

I have to admit the only time I'd seen reference to the Viper Legion was in Legion Of The Damned, where they're one of the chapters manning the blockade against the Cholercaust. Where did that background come from?



#12 Ramellan

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:48 AM

There are a number of references though which could link their chapter to a few others. Also from what I heard somewhere, didn't the author of much of the DoW books which draw similarities between them and Thousand Sons have issues with his factual and fluffy accuracy? I haven't flicked through them myself, just going on what I've read.

  

The Blood Ravens have been linked to others, but those are mostly superficial, like raven guard just cause they raven in their name. Their chapter has received more hints than any other that they're from a traitor legion, so they get the most attention for that. The other suspected chapters are mostly just "hey, these guys are pure/angry/super tough too, so they could be from a Traitor legion. I mean, don't get me wrong I kinda like that, but the Ravens have the largest body of supporting evidence. More so I think than evidence pointing them to a loyalist primarch.

have you created that on your own?


Mostly, yes. Part of me wants to make rules for them, but I wouldn't know where to begin. Never posted on tg, so my little dream of a 1d4 chan page with my legion might just stay a dream.

#13 Ramellan

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:29 AM

Their colour scheme isn't really very close. There is blue on their armour.
My counterargument is that given (a) their combat doctrine focuses on mechanised mobility and swordsmanship at close quarters, (b) their culture is clannish, philosphical, cynical but relatively welcoming, and © they use the same damn heraldic device in a different colour, they're white scar successors.
 
The Cursed foundings aren't traitor chapters precisely. The people responsible for the founding used (probably) traitor geneseed to create the Sons of Antaeus and Minotaurs (note that the latter were bezerkerish in their original incarnation, Forgeworld notes 'in-character' that there have been several chapters with this name or similar). They aren't, however, from the traitor legions per se, any more than a black templar is from the imperial fists.
 
The red scorpions, again, aren't a 'loyalist traitors' because they were put together by inquisitorial order with a focus on maintaining purity of geneseed wrt tyranids. The Inquisitor Lord in Anphelion's memos essentially announce that he was involved in having them created. I can't see anything specifically to tie them to the Emperor's Children.
 
 
There are 'loyalist traitors' from every chapter, but often they were individuals - the knights errant, like garro, are a nice fitting place for this.
 
There is a sizeable force of loyalist iron warriors in Extermination, but I'm not sure how many of them survive that battle.
 
 
I have to admit the only time I'd seen reference to the Viper Legion was in Legion Of The Damned, where they're one of the chapters manning the blockade against the Cholercaust. Where did that background come from?


Thanks for all the info. I didn't know that part about the Red Scorpions, where did you get that? Also, agreed about the white scars, if I had to pick a founding chapter for the Wardens it'd be them.

My definition of loyal traitor is a bit more broad than yours, I guess. As long as their gene seed is from the legion of a traitor that qualifies them in my eyes, since that rather makes them the sons of said traitor, and would raise all kinds of heck if it were proven. I wonder what the Space Wolves would say if the Blood Ravens found proof they're the Sons of Magnus?

Finally, about the background, if you're referring to what I had I quotation marks, that was just me trying to write some fluff for the Chapter. The Legion of the Damned book is the only place where they are mentioned. Like I said, I just thought they're name was fitting, and there's nothing else written about them, so I kind of just borrowed it.

#14 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:31 AM

The red scorpions initial appearance (Imperial Armour 4: The Anphelion Project)

 

 

Oh, definitely. But it's not (quite) the same thing; after all, the cursed founding was done with some level of inquisitorial approval. The wolves would go nuts, if they found out. That said, that doesn't mean they'd necessarily go to war with the chapter. But the point is that it's hinted that the Blood Ravens are literally thousand sons successors - as in, there is an unbroken, contiguous organisation with survivors of the battle of prospero.

 

Someone implanted with old gene-seed extracted from a stasis vault on mars that has no exposure to members of the legion isn't quite the same thing. Otherwise the ultramarines would have some serious issues (see The First Heretic for details).



#15 filliman

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:46 AM


 


As for the Vortex, go right ahead. If there was one thing I was worried about (besides the whole true fate of the Alpha Legion) it was that as Praeses they might be stuck in their area. But hey, they're over strength (or have a legion backing them) so it shouldn't be too hard at all for them to travel around the segmentum.

Ooh, there's a thought. In true AL style, to conceal their numbers and work unhindered by their post around the Eye, the Viper Legion maintains a few company "doubles": multiple copies of their tactical companies (complete with identical names on their rosters), which travel beyond the bounds of their domain when intelligence tells them of a threat in the wider imperium. If pressed, the companies explain their presence as simply "wishing to put their vast experience at the disposal of the Imperium they all serve."

 

If they have the AL backing them, they could easily form 2 or more doubles for each company, in addition to the Viper Legion's own aspirants (if they would bother...HEY, AL has to reinforce from somewhere eventually!)

Also: question. I've seen people mention the Loyalist SM Gene-Seed has weakened over ten-thousand years, how did that happen?

@Ramellan: I already have the idea :D


Edited by filliman, 06 August 2014 - 11:48 AM.

Aaah, Astropaths, or as I call them, Telefaxus Glorficius.

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#16 Ramellan

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:40 PM

If they have the AL backing them, they could easily form 2 or more doubles for each company, in addition to the Viper Legion's own aspirants (if they would bother...HEY, AL has to reinforce from somewhere eventually!)
Also: question. I've seen people mention the Loyalist SM Gene-Seed has weakened over ten-thousand years, how did that happen?
@Ramellan: I already have the idea :D

Gene seed develops within a space marines body over at least ten years. Every set of progenoid glands produces two more in that space of time. Over 10,000 years, some of the gene seeds grown over that time have developed some mutations, either very minor ones like skin/eye color changes, or crazy purge-worthy ones (see the flame falcons and soul drinkers). It hasn't helped that a lot of the science behind properly storing and surgically implanting them has been lost or warped in certain cases.

@Magnus: dang it, I can't get into the Horus heresy novels now! I heard they're all linked, and there's like 20 of them! I do see your point though *shrug* still! even without that connection there's still lots of story potential.

Dang it, I've got a severe altaholic case. Now I'm coming up with ideas for a Viper Legion Apothecary, a Salamander Techmarine, An Eldar Shadowseer, and I want to make another L.T. Chapter but I've no idea where to begin.

#17 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 04:22 AM

 

@Magnus: dang it, I can't get into the Horus heresy novels now! I heard they're all linked, and there's like 20 of them! I do see your point though *shrug* still! even without that connection there's still lots of story potential.

 

Why not? Just run through at your own pace.

We've got a friend who's reading them for the first time who has no previous 40k experience - it's an interesting experience, because obviously stuff that we all 'know' (like prospero) is news to him, whilst other things that are new (like the story of the Khan, or the alpha legion) are...not surprising, but no more so than any other twist.

 

One of the best conversations so far:

 

"Something of a spoiler: Horus dies at the end."

"Well, I figured that part out, didn't I?"

"Oh?"

"Well, it's called 'The Horus Heresy', not 'Horus' Glorious Liberation Of The Imperium', so it's kind of implied..."



#18 Robin Graves

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:03 PM

Am I missing any? Cause if not then I can't help but notice that these are all the 4 chapters that are each dedicated to one of the Chaos Gods.

 

The Exorsists chapter could possibly be another group of Thousand Sons.

Pre-heresy TS colors? check.

Fighting daemons using strange methods? check.

All information witheld by the inquistion? check.

Bear in mind, this is my personal view, of certain hints in one of the forgeworld books, so it could be far from canon.

 

(SPOILERS)

Technicaly the Grey knights count! When they were first formed Nathanial Garro ( former death guard) and other loyalists from the traitor legions are amongst them.

 

Also several chapters could have been infiltrated by the alpha legion. (as they did with the raven guard legion)



#19 Ramellan

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 05:31 AM

 
The Exorsists chapter could possibly be another group of Thousand Sons.
Pre-heresy TS colors? check.
Fighting daemons using strange methods? check.
All information witheld by the inquistion? check.
Bear in mind, this is my personal view, of certain hints in one of the forgeworld books, so it could be far from canon.
 
(SPOILERS)
Technicaly the Grey knights count! When they were first formed Nathanial Garro ( former death guard) and other loyalists from the traitor legions are amongst them.
 
Also several chapters could have been infiltrated by the alpha legion. (as they did with the raven guard legion)


Ooh, sorry Robin, but the Exorcists have a confirmed progenitor chapter.... Which are The Grey Knights themselves! :D And yes, alpha legion could be (are) infiltrating other chapters (which has it's own level of awesome for stories) but I'm looking for chapters made up entirely of members with gene-seed from the traitor primarchs. Gotta look up that extermination book, see how likely a group of iron warrior survivors could be.

#20 javcs

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:41 AM

 

 
The Exorsists chapter could possibly be another group of Thousand Sons.
Pre-heresy TS colors? check.
Fighting daemons using strange methods? check.
All information witheld by the inquistion? check.
Bear in mind, this is my personal view, of certain hints in one of the forgeworld books, so it could be far from canon.
 
(SPOILERS)
Technicaly the Grey knights count! When they were first formed Nathanial Garro ( former death guard) and other loyalists from the traitor legions are amongst them.
 
Also several chapters could have been infiltrated by the alpha legion. (as they did with the raven guard legion)


Ooh, sorry Robin, but the Exorcists have a confirmed progenitor chapter.... Which are The Grey Knights themselves! :D And yes, alpha legion could be (are) infiltrating other chapters (which has it's own level of awesome for stories) but I'm looking for chapters made up entirely of members with gene-seed from the traitor primarchs. Gotta look up that extermination book, see how likely a group of iron warrior survivors could be.

 

Wait, what?! The Grey Knights have successor chapters?! Source?

 

Not sure if it has since been clarified, but last I read, depending on how one reads the stuff about the Dark Angels, and the Lion, and Cypher, etc, it could perhaps be argued that the Dark Angels and their successors are "Loyalist Sons of Traitors".






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