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Place your figure within 3 spaces feats...


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#1 Chav

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:34 PM

Hey Guys.

 

So this came up during this evenings game, we were playing Local Politics (shadow of nerekhall) with a Tinashi the wanderer. If she starts on the top of the gatehouse she can use her feat to get to the other side of the gate, open both the gate and portcullis, and with 1 fatique and her move action, she can get to the bridge, along with the rest of the group, and thus win in turn 1. 

 

We houseruled she could not, as this totally ruined the game for everyone, which lead to a very close and epic encounter, but can it really be true this is possible?

 

Thanks

 



#2 Carbini

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 04:49 PM

I don't have the booklet in front of me but the best answer I can give you is that you can't count spaces through doors or walls. You CAN count through portcullises I believe (portculli?:)).

 

I remember I tried to jump Tomble through a few doors before I realized this was a rule. I remember reading that quest but I haven't played it yet. If no one has answered the question I'll take a look at the quest book when I get home and have a better answer.



#3 Zaltyre

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:00 PM

I don't have the booklet in front of me but the best answer I can give you is that you can't count spaces through doors or walls. You CAN count through portcullises I believe (portculli? :)).

 

I remember I tried to jump Tomble through a few doors before I realized this was a rule. I remember reading that quest but I haven't played it yet. If no one has answered the question I'll take a look at the quest book when I get home and have a better answer.

This is correct. Tinashi's ability lets you place the figure anywhere within range if you can count the spaces, and spaces can be counted through a portcullis. Therefore, Tinashi can use her heroic feat to move to the other side of a portcullis (just like Tomble.) However, in order to move into the gatehouse, she would have to place her figure on the other side of a door, which is not allowed since you cannot count spaces through closed doors. 



#4 Chav

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:35 AM

Thanks alot guys, one follow up question, where can i find this the rules? I was spending alot of time searching for something yesterday. Also, can you then jump through "impossible" terrain, the one with red borders? I assume yes based on what you write. 



#5 any2cards

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 05:01 AM

Thanks alot guys, one follow up question, where can i find this the rules? I was spending alot of time searching for something yesterday. Also, can you then jump through "impossible" terrain, the one with red borders? I assume yes based on what you write. 

 

Base Game Rules, Page 13:

 

Counting Spaces
 
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities,
players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on
page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for
the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent.

 

FAQ, Page 2:

 

Q: When counting spaces for skills and abilities, such as the Thief skill
“Greedy,” do other figures block the path? How about doors?
 
A: When counting spaces like this, players ignore all other figures on the
path. Unless line of sight is specifically stated as a requirement, figures
only need to be in range for these skills or abilities to work. However,
doors do block this path. A Thief cannot use “Greedy” through a door
because he cannot count spaces through the door.

Edited by any2cards, 31 July 2014 - 05:04 AM.


#6 Zaltyre

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:49 AM

I think it's important to note that the paragraph in the rules says that non-obstacle terrain is ignored when counting spaces. That is, obstacle terrain is not ignored- you cannot count spaces through obstacles.



#7 Steve-O

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:53 AM

Any2 has quoted the relevant sections.  Basically what you need to be aware of is that any effect which does something "within X spaces" of a given board position means you're "counting spaces" to determine what's "within X."  The rules for which are on page 13.

 

So the spaces must each be adjacent to the next and you cannot count through obstacle spaces ("impossible" terrain, as you called it.)  Line of Sight is not required unless the ability says it is.  That's about it.

 

So no, you cannot count through an obstacle, but can count around it (including diagonally.)  A single obstacle space usually won't cause too much trouble because of this.  You also can't count through closed doors, as discussed, because a closed door breaks adjacency between spaces on either side.

 

You also "count spaces" when determining range for an attack.  Note that the rules for "performing an attack" say you need LoS, so any ability that lets you "perform an attack" (potentially with extra benefits) will require LoS because of that.



#8 chasewystone

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 02:02 PM

Can you also count spaces for abilities through Overgrowth?  I know you can't attack through them, and since the rules had initially stated that they were treated as doors, I thought you couldn't count spaces through them... but after looking at the rules again, I'm no longer so sure...

 

Also, if you can't attack through Overgrowth, does that mean that Blast can't affect spaces on the opposite side of the Overgrowth?



#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 02:21 PM

Can you also count spaces for abilities through Overgrowth?  I know you can't attack through them, and since the rules had initially stated that they were treated as doors, I thought you couldn't count spaces through them... but after looking at the rules again, I'm no longer so sure...

 

Also, if you can't attack through Overgrowth, does that mean that Blast can't affect spaces on the opposite side of the Overgrowth?

You can count spaces through overgrowth, because spaces on the other side of overgrowth (unlike doors) are considered adjacent. The labyrinth of ruin rule book has you covered in this regard, there is an explicit statement about abilities (I bolded it:)

 

"Figures cannot trace line of sight through overgrowth. Even though adjacent spaces separated by 
overgrowth are still considered to be adjacent, figures cannot attack through overgrowth. However, figures can move through overgrowth. In addition, when counting spaces for an ability, players can count spaces 
through overgrowth. Large monsters cannot occupy two spaces that are separated by overgrowth. A figure may perform an open or close a door action to remove one adjacent overgrowth from the map and return it to the game box. When a figure does this, it is considered to be opening a door."
 
Regarding blast- normally, I would say "adjacent is adjacent," and blast just says "adjacent." Also, blast is not attacking, it's causing extra spaces to be affected by an attack- just like fire breath. My inclination would be that no, blast and fire breath don't work through overgrowth since the rules make an a point to say overgrowth is an exception to the normal attack rules regarding adjacency.. if there hasn't been a ruling on the unofficial forum, you might want to ask FFG the question to be sure.


#10 chasewystone

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 02:36 PM

I sent off a question to FFG regarding Overgrowth vs. Blast and/or Fire Breath after seeing the exact same question pop up on BGG.



#11 Alarmed

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 08:38 AM

 

Can you also count spaces for abilities through Overgrowth?  I know you can't attack through them, and since the rules had initially stated that they were treated as doors, I thought you couldn't count spaces through them... but after looking at the rules again, I'm no longer so sure...

 

Also, if you can't attack through Overgrowth, does that mean that Blast can't affect spaces on the opposite side of the Overgrowth?

You can count spaces through overgrowth, because spaces on the other side of overgrowth (unlike doors) are considered adjacent. The labyrinth of ruin rule book has you covered in this regard, there is an explicit statement about abilities (I bolded it:)

 

"Figures cannot trace line of sight through overgrowth. Even though adjacent spaces separated by 
overgrowth are still considered to be adjacent, figures cannot attack through overgrowth. However, figures can move through overgrowth. In addition, when counting spaces for an ability, players can count spaces 
through overgrowth. Large monsters cannot occupy two spaces that are separated by overgrowth. A figure may perform an open or close a door action to remove one adjacent overgrowth from the map and return it to the game box. When a figure does this, it is considered to be opening a door."
 
Regarding blast- normally, I would say "adjacent is adjacent," and blast just says "adjacent." Also, blast is not attacking, it's causing extra spaces to be affected by an attack- just like fire breath. My inclination would be that no, blast and fire breath don't work through overgrowth since the rules make an a point to say overgrowth is an exception to the normal attack rules regarding adjacency.. if there hasn't been a ruling on the unofficial forum, you might want to ask FFG the question to be sure.

 

But as you stated, blast is not an attack, just an effect that affects adjacent creatures, and "adjacent spaces separated by overgrowth are still considered to be adjacent".

 
So, for example, a Geomancer could use Earthen Anguish to target a Stone adjacent to, but on his side of overgrowth, and it would blast anyone adjacent toit, including any beasties waiting on the other side of the overgrowth. At least, that's my opinion.
 
We'll see what FFG sez.  :P

Edited by Alarmed, 14 November 2014 - 08:39 AM.


#12 Zaltyre

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 09:12 AM

But as you stated, blast is not an attack, just an effect that affects adjacent creatures, and "adjacent spaces separated by overgrowth are still considered to be adjacent".

 

 
So, for example, a Geomancer could use Earthen Anguish to target a Stone adjacent to, but on his side of overgrowth, and it would blast anyone adjacent toit, including any beasties waiting on the other side of the overgrowth. At least, that's my opinion.
 
We'll see what FFG sez.  :P

 

It's true- but the text doesn't say "can't target something through overgrowth, or can't affect with attacks through overgrowth (if it did, it would be clear) it just says attack. To me, that sounds like "target" however, it might apply to all attack effects, including things like blast. It's definitely worth the clarification because the rule says (paraphrased "yes, it's adjacent- but even so, you can't attack through overgrowth." I have to wonder if that statement is in there exactly for things like blast (though it's certainly there to prevent melee attacks.)



#13 Electris

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 02:27 PM

Don't you have to trace line of sight to target an attack though? In that case it would seem that an attack could not target an object on the other side of the overgrowth unless LOS could be made some other way.



#14 Zaltyre

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 03:04 PM

Don't you have to trace line of sight to target an attack though? In that case it would seem that an attack could not target an object on the other side of the overgrowth unless LOS could be made some other way. 

Overgrowth is (as far as I can think right now) the only case where adjacency doesn't automatically grant LOS- if you're sharing a corner, you've got an unblocked corner-to-corner, by definition. The requirements for a non-reach melee attack just specify adjacency, for this reason. Reach needs LOS (though that actually isn't in the rulebook, it was just clarified later.) You only really start considering LOS with ranged attacks.



#15 chasewystone

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 04:32 PM

I finally got a response from FFG, specifically from Nathan Hajek.

 

"Blast and Firebreath can affect figures on the other side of overgrowth."


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#16 Zaltyre

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 06:58 PM

I finally got a response from FFG, specifically from Nathan Hajek.

 

"Blast and Firebreath can affect figures on the other side of overgrowth."

Sweet!



#17 Alarmed

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 07:43 AM

Ka-ching!






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