Jump to content



Photo

Overwatch and Suppressive Fire


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#21 Fgdsfg

Fgdsfg

    Lrod-Iniquitsor

  • Members
  • 2,006 posts

Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:11 AM

Alrik, in all seriousness. I asked what people have done other than invoke rule 0.

Well in all seriousness, all house rules are essentially Rule 0. You can solve this by adding the line "This does not work with the Uplifting Primer as an improvised weapon" and call it a homebrew, but at the end of the day, it's still Rule 0.

If you really want a rewording of the rules text (which is an entirely valid wish; I myself would want to do so, because I'm (slowly) working on my own homebrew and I want clear rules texts), then I'd just go with my aforementioned solution. The fact that you can still arguably pin a single person with your book or pebble is only representative of you being crazy enough to think it'll work, and the guy jumping out of the way.
 

As for your other reply, that's exactly what we have been discussing in this thread. Let me reiterate - you do not attack targets with suppressive fire, you designate an area and bullets go everywhere within it. How do you stack the penalties if targets are at different ranges and different sizes?

This. This I'd love a concrete answer to. Or a solid suggestion as to how to resolve.
  • Tenebrae likes this

Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#22 Angel of Death

Angel of Death

    Member

  • Members
  • 337 posts

Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:04 PM

Alrik, in all seriousness. I asked what people have done other than invoke rule 0.

 

As for your other reply, that's exactly what we have been discussing in this thread. Let me reiterate - you do not attack targets with suppressive fire, you designate an area and bullets go everywhere within it. How do you stack the penalties if targets are at different ranges and different sizes?

Laughing this just came up in our Dark Heresy game and I had the same questions.

If the penalties stack or not. 

I believe they should stack with the Suppressive Fire -20.  Because otherwise Suppresive Fire can makes it to easy to hit otherwise Hard targets.   On the other hand, I agree that anyone within cone of fire needs to roll or be pinned.

So I am interest to see how the board takes this.  Also did anyone send a formal question to FFG?


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#23 Alrik Vas

Alrik Vas

    Member

  • Members
  • 200 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 10:09 PM

Hitting isn't the important part of suppressive fire.

 

However.,.

 

If there are differences in targets like range, size or warp stuff, it's possible to calculate the bonuses and penalties for each individualy off the same roll.  Hitting some and missing others.

 

The question is, do you want to bother?


Edited by Alrik Vas, 05 August 2014 - 10:11 PM.


#24 Fgdsfg

Fgdsfg

    Lrod-Iniquitsor

  • Members
  • 2,006 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:07 PM

Hitting isn't the important part of suppressive fire.

 

However.,.

 

If there are differences in targets like range, size or warp stuff, it's possible to calculate the bonuses and penalties for each individualy off the same roll.  Hitting some and missing others.

 

The question is, do you want to bother?

 

That's not really possible either, based on how Suppressive Fire is written. It was the first thought that occurred to me, but you can't actually account for that, seeing as how the additional hits themselves are based of of whether how many Degrees of Success you get to begin with. To determine the Degrees of Success, you first have to make a roll, to know how many Degrees, you need to know the difficulty. But you can't, since you're setting up a kill-zone, you're not aiming at anyone in particular.

 

If I misunderstand you, please walk me through how you'd resolve the action, step by step.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#25 Petrucus

Petrucus

    Member

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 05 October 2014 - 07:26 PM

 

What I want to know is, has anyone else had similar problems? Have you implemented any cleverly written house rules to avoid such issues, besides rule 0?

 

Yes, similar problems are abundant. It makes me feel weird to see all those posts in this thread either derailing the topic or posting offtopic answers aka invoke rule 0 when you have already excluded that option.

 

A decent house rule is to make pinning tests  a full auto or heavy only option. 

 

As for the Eldar case my gut instict says "dont stack". Based on a large volume of firepower. An 80% bs guardsman is a veteran of more than one fronts. 60% means u stand a good chance on making a single hit or two. This monster of a guardsman wielding a fully automatic weapon , going all out has a chance of shooting somebody. 

 

Sounds fair to me.



#26 felismachina

felismachina

    Member

  • Members
  • 91 posts

Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

As for suppressive fire i ruled that only full auto can pin enemy (i cant image 2 bullet burst pin anyone) and that -20 modifier stack with range modfier and others appropriate to situation (fog, darkness, small enemy etc). As overwatch i just ruled that it won't pin the enemy if it's not full auto. Problem solved.


Edited by felismachina, 07 October 2014 - 06:42 PM.


#27 Terraneaux

Terraneaux

    Member

  • Members
  • 354 posts

Posted 07 October 2014 - 10:05 PM

Just so we're clear, IRL semi-auto fire is used to suppress. If you are changing it for ease of play, go ahead, but it's not particularly 'realistic' (whatever that means in a setting with werewolf vikings from hell in space) to disallow suppression with semi-auto fire.


  • Darth Smeg likes this

#28 Benu5

Benu5

    Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 07 October 2014 - 10:33 PM

2 rounds coming at you every six seconds (that's how long a turn is meant to be) is probably enough to pin most people. Especially if it's accurate. While it couldn't suppress a whole squad to could keep a single person's head down.

 

The idea of the full auto/heavy only I like if it were something like a cone or area of suppression, makes the idea of the beaten zone work in the system, something that sorely lacks in a lot of games that involve shooting.

 

So house ruled as non heavy or full auto fire can suppress single targets, heavy or full auto do a 25arc or whatever the blast radius x1.5 or x2 (explosions are even better than bullets/lasers)

 

But an Imperial Guardsman by himself pumping enough fire to hit an Eldar, who are so quick that an Eldar who has never followed the Path of the Warrior is able to defeat a trained human swordsman in a duel in one strike (in Path of the Outcast, great read)? Let alone a trained veteran Dark Eldar Cabalite warrior hyped up on so many drugs and stimulants that Charlie Sheen would OD by looking at him/her/it, I think that the size of and the range to the target should definitely be accounted for, and any Eldar should definitely get a dodge roll. And not all guardsmen have 60 BS 

 

It's a guardsman's life to have it tough, don't make it too easy ;)



#29 Terraneaux

Terraneaux

    Member

  • Members
  • 354 posts

Posted 07 October 2014 - 11:09 PM

It's the pinning flamers that the Weapon Specialists have that are really BS.



#30 Benu5

Benu5

    Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:59 AM

I'd sure as hell get down behind something if someone was using a flame thrower on me. It's not just flame, it's liquid promethium(in this setting) that is on fire, that sticks and soaks in making your clothing, equipment and skin (extra) flammable.



#31 DeathByGrotz

DeathByGrotz

    Member

  • Members
  • 488 posts

Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:10 AM

A combat round being six seconds long is literally the first thing we changed about the system. Our rounds are 2-3 seconds, tops. Yes, this changes movement rates somewhat, but it also fixes the hilarious bollocks that is "you can only shoot once every six seconds; please use a gun from World War II, it's better than the CRAP you're shooting with now."


  • Tenebrae likes this

#32 Myrion

Myrion

    Member

  • Members
  • 293 posts

Posted 08 October 2014 - 05:38 AM

How do you deal with the movement rates?



#33 DeathByGrotz

DeathByGrotz

    Member

  • Members
  • 488 posts

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:27 AM

Increased them slightly, actually. 18 meters charge in six seconds we found hilarious. It basically implies a normal 20th century human can easily outperform anyone in the 41st millenium.



#34 Benu5

Benu5

    Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:25 PM

But it's not just the distance, it's the distance and the attack, plus the fact that they are carrying 30-40 kg of gear. I agree with the shooting once every six seconds being a bit slow, but for most actions it actually fits, reloading, aiming, moving, using equipment etc.

 

My statement about one round per second within a meter doesn't mean each individual needs to provide that rate of fire, it's the squad/section/team as a whole that needs to get the rounds on an enemy.



#35 DeathByGrotz

DeathByGrotz

    Member

  • Members
  • 488 posts

Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:02 PM

The round time is debatable, really. The problem is the movement rates table has absolutely no basis in reality and if you, say, actually know the average speeds of a 100 meter run, even for a completely unfit person, you quickly arrive at the conclusion you need a new table.

 

Suppression fire, as per rules, is a bit odd. You're entirely right that less volume should cause suppression, however, its impact is about as devestating as a high fear rating. Normally, when you're under such pinning fire, you can still act, you'll just be very reluctant to leave your cover. This is why I prefer to restrict suppression to full auto weaponry, rather than forge a long list of "what I can do without malus" and "what I can do but eat a penalty for."



#36 Radwraith

Radwraith

    Member

  • Members
  • 923 posts

Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:11 PM

It's not quite as ridiculous as you think! Play any "shooter" videogame and you'll see what I'm talking about (Not that I would accuse them of being the height of realism!), You get in a firefight that appears to have been relatively short but when you look up, 45 minutes have gone by! (More if you're playing a flight sim or tank game!). A charge in 40k is not just a sprint! It's moving in and attacking a target. This involves identifying your target, lining up on it and attacking. not so ridiculous when you think of it.



#37 DeathByGrotz

DeathByGrotz

    Member

  • Members
  • 488 posts

Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:20 PM

You're seriously trying to tell me it will take me six seconds to clear the length of my room and attack someone?



#38 Radwraith

Radwraith

    Member

  • Members
  • 923 posts

Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:52 PM

Depends on the room. The average person in OW has an Ag. of 3. I believe that would make charge range 6M or approx. 18 to 20 ft. If there is any furniture and/or other people fighting/bullets flying, it might! Also, this would also encompass recovery time before your next action in there. The simple problem in any combat rd is the abstraction. A trained swordsman might make 10 attacks in 5 sec. IRL but that's not going to be playable as a game mechanic!



#39 Myrion

Myrion

    Member

  • Members
  • 293 posts

Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:47 PM

Why not?

I mean, there's plenty of games that do just that. GURPS springs to mind, with 1s turns and ways to really push those multiple attacks. It may be hard to pull off without giving up all your defenses, but you can totally do 10 attacks in 5 seconds.
Plus, firearms have fire rates actually approaching their real-world values, while being totally playable and doing a better job at simulating the difference between single-shot and full-auto. 

As for movement, GURPS has about 4-5m (not quite sure right now) as the 1s move for an average human. Which I, as an untrained dude, have confirmed for myself in rooms with obstacles and all. Paintball is fun ;)

So, given that it's clearly possible to make rules like this, I have to ask again, why not?


Edited by Myrion, 12 October 2014 - 11:48 PM.


#40 Radwraith

Radwraith

    Member

  • Members
  • 923 posts

Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:46 AM

Having never played gurps, I can't comment on that. I'll have to check it out!




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS