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#81 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 12:08 PM

Space marine equivalents in terms of training from the Imperial Guard do not have rank-and-file BS 3. Not only does this support the argument, but it underlines that BS is the result of intense training, which both space marines and guard elites have, and not superior genetics.

 

Q.E.D.

 

Now, here's something I would find far more fluffy and plausible, for those who want their space marines to be crack shots:

 

Put a combat tactics and targetting computer into power armours and interface it with the marine over their black carapace, which in this case should be the equivalent of an MIU. The result is, while helmet is on and their systems active, the marine can use the superior vision enhancement etc. of his computer interface to locate targets easier, the servosystems in his armour to correct minor problems while aiming etc.

 

Why do CSMs not attach integrated weapons systems as auxiliary and direct them over MIUs, if they want to be truly shooty? They wear, what the heretek has to integrate and usually with a power supply that can support it...and no Omnissiah telling them it's heresy.

 

This has always baffled me in every FFG 40k RPG: Why does the high tech power armour not truly make use of its potential?

 

It's not all genetics. Superior equipment is a huge, huge space marine factor. Bolter damage is just the most nonsensical way to go about it, tbh, when you have a high tech toy you're wearing on your very own body.

 

Short version: Marines should have full MIU benefits for their power armour, if those systems are functional, and be able to attach integrated weaponry to it.

 

An example can be found here: http://youtu.be/7MLoXQIPPNI?t=57s


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 15 August 2014 - 12:48 PM.

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#82 Lynata

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 02:25 PM

Tbh, I always imagined the Black Carapace as just another form of MIU, given its description in the Index Astartes.

 

The funny thing is, Techmarines do use these benefits to control the servo-arm on their back, and I imagine it's similar for the storm bolters welded to some Grey Knights' forearms - which probably qualify as an example for the "integrated weaponry" you mentioned. Same for the Terminator's Cyclone missile system.

The Index Astartes also hints at the Black Carapace's main function not being to direct the power armour, but to interface with its maintenance and first aid systems.

 

If I had to look for an explanation for Space Marines still carrying their guns as, well, guns, instead of having them strapped on their shoulders, I imagine this is just yet another product of intended versatility, as it makes it easier for them to swap, reload, etc.

 

That being said, did you ever notice how bolters are sometimes shown as having multiple lenses on their frame? Check this image of the Celestians' weapons; they appear to have a large and a smaller lens on the front. Perhaps the smaller one is a laser pointer (aka Red-Dot Sight), whilst the larger one is ... a camera linked to their helmets?

It'd perfectly explain how Space Marines, Battle Sisters and other warriors equipped with helmets could discharge these weapons without having to use traditional ironsights, which aren't really functional on Imperial bolters anyways.

 

Depending on how you interpret the "second barrel", it is also represented on the miniatures:

space_marine_tactical_2013_boltgun_6.jpg

 

Marine power armour is so ridiculously bulky that it makes it nigh-impossible to properly use scopes, but with this technology, the issue would be non-existent as the scope would simply transmit its data to the shooter's "electronic" eye regardless of where he looks. :)


Edited by Lynata, 15 August 2014 - 02:26 PM.

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current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#83 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

This actually got me thinking about legion weapon training again. It's a shoddy rule, as written, and makes absolutely no sense. However, gun-cam systems and neural interfaces are an entirely different beast, one that makes a lot more sense, to set space marine weaponry apart. I still do not think they should do more damage (I think all bolters should do legion weapon scale damage and have legion weapon rarity, to do its terrifying in universe status justice). But, you need to be trained to use these advanced shooting aids, otherwise they will do nothing but irritate you in combat. If Legion Weapon Training were needed to take advantage of the digital combat interface in power armour and the gun-cam sensory aids that allow it to enhance any user's ballistics training, then I could really see it being a legit, worthwhile talent (and, with proper weapon upgrades, something anyone could aspire to take if they use a lot of power armour in conjunction with their gear). Because like that, it's logical in universe and you can have space marines be awesome, without completely suspending disbelief to make them gods they, frankly, are not.

 

Concretely, I can see such shooting aids negating the accuracy deficite from semi- or full auto fire, for example, or simply giving a flat +10 BS. Really depends on just how awesome you want your power armoured soldiers to be!


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 15 August 2014 - 03:12 PM.

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#84 Lynata

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 05:00 PM

Good point!

 

And I recall that FFG has already "experimented" with suitable bonuses elsewhere. I think the BoM Sister gets a helmet that has an "Auto Senses" trait which gives +10 BS, for example. It wouldn't take much brainjuice to rework it into a combination helmet+gun.

 

Additionally, I'd also make Legion weapons useful as an improvised weapon (to reflect their sturdy nature) and have them be Best Quality by default (self-repair circuits aiding against weapon jam). Like I said earlier, bigger mustn't always translate to simply increasing the size of everything, it can also mean adding additional gadgets.

 

Astartes power armour is a good example for this concept as well, if you consider the list of toys built into that suit. If you'd go by Codex fluff, the actual armour plating is only "up to an inch thick" ... which coincidentally fits nicely to another Codex statement referring to Battle Sister PA providing the exact same level of armoured protection, in spite of its slimmer frame.

 

I like how a lot of GW stuff makes perfect sense as soon as you start reading up on things. :)

Not everything, of course. But a whole lot.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#85 htsmithium

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:47 PM

I always thought that the intro to dark crusade was one of the best representations of auto-senses I have seen.


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 ding dong mala mortuus est,

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#86 Chastity

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:01 AM

[edit] To perhaps move this discussion further along, as I see we are getting caught up in way too many quotes ...

 

In the end, it is all a matter of preferences. Some people have less fun in their game if Marines are "not strong enough", because they absolutely need Marines to be as powerful as they are in the material they like (usually some novels they read). Other people's fun is hampered if Marines are "too strong", because they are used to a more grounded representation that lends greater importance to other types of fighters as well. Fantasy vs Grimdark. Some time ago, I already had a similar discussion here.

 

There is ample support for both interpretations of the background in the various often conflicting sources of fluff, which I suspect is how these different "trends" began to develop in the first place.

 

We both have our preferred visions of how we see the 41st millennium, and I really don't think we will be able to convince the other to change theirs. And as much as we'd like to due to our conviction, perhaps we shouldn't either.  ;) In the end, all that matters is that both of us have fun in our respective groups.

 

I'm inclined to agree that this is mostly a matter of taste, although I wouldn't necessarily categorise it as "fantasy vs grimdark" (to me a world in which space marines are superhuman killing machines as far removed from the people the purportedly protect as the daemons and xenos they supposedly protect them from is far *more* grimdark than one in which marines are just well trained guys in good armour).

 

I'd categorise the disagreement as being about game design more than anything else. I feel that the FFG 40K RPGs are intentionally exception-heavy. Most things have special rules and extra unique twiddles - heck the Inquisitor's Handbook for the old Dark Heresy had rules for *dozens* of Bolter variants - so I'm perfectly happy for there to be multiple varieties of Boltgun in the game, just like I'm happy for there to be game-mechanical representation of Space Marine resistance to injury (in the shape of unnatural toughness) and game mechanical ways to get around it (in the shape of Felling).

 

If I wanted a game where everything was mechanically identical, I'd be playing FATE.



#87 Lynata

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:43 AM

Ah, I don't see indidivual gun models as "exceptions". I like them, and I find they give a weapon more character, which provides further potential for its owner. But these weapons should feel as if they'd follow the same laws of physics and common sense.
 
For example, the requirements for wielding Astartes weapons are: Be an Astartes. It doesn't matter how much Strength you have, how big you are, whether you're an Ogryn or a hulking mutant ... if you lack the Space Marine class you are punished by a mysterious penalty that quite clearly doesn't have anything to do with realism, but feels like FFG's equivalent of "soulbound items" in MMOs. It's as if Dark Heresy were to have books that can only be opened by Adepts, and Arbitrators are the only class allowed to wield stun batons.
 
It boggles the mind, especially if you consider that the Inquisitor's Handbook already introduced bolt weapons that provide a Strength-based penalty to BS. And a bolt weapon firing Astartes ammunition that normal Humans have no problem with at all. But I guess FFG just had different ideas than the original Black Industries team.
 
Same thing for the resistance to injury. There is no rule that it'd have to be portrayed as your skin being tougher than the armour you wear, having you shrug off bullets without a scratch or merely getting a nice tan from the average damage of a plasma pistol discharged into your naked face. There's countless alternatives, from simply providing additional Wounds, to (my preferred approach) GW's own version of d100 Toughness Bonus where it doesn't function like an additional layer of immune-to-pen armour, but instead merely as a buffer between individual Injury levels ... so you'd still get injured, your Toughness merely dictates how badly. A much better representation of how our bodies work, and one that comes with a much higher chance to require bionics and artificial limbs rather than the "I'm fine" -> "I'm dead" we have now where you're as good as gone once you've lost all your Wounds.
It also nicely circumvents the need for stuff like Felling, where a weapon has the exact same effect on a normal guy as to the supposedly much tougher Marine next to him. My suspension of disbelief gets nightmares from stuff like this, and if you want Marines to be much tougher I also find it strange that you'd defend this Trait.
 
Again, nobody here wants a game where "everything is mechanically identical". It's all about the width of the gap, not the gap itself.
 
 
As for the Space Marines being shining immortal knights protecting the helpless masses from danger supposedly being "far more grimdark" than them not actually being as tough as the propaganda makes them out to be - well, we'll just have to disagree there. In my opinion, what keeps them removed from the general populace is way more about their lifestyle and indoctrination (= roleplaying!), rather than a +4 to damage and TB.

Edited by Lynata, 18 August 2014 - 10:47 AM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#88 Chastity

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 10:40 AM

I agree that the arbitrary restriction which says that Astartes weapons randomly stop functioning for non-Astartes is silly, although I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be a penalty associated with using them if you aren't in Power Armour, or don't have Unnatural Strength.

 

As for the stuff about Toughness - here you're arguing for a complete rewrite of the way the game handles damage. You *could* have just done it with more Wounds and that probably would have been easier in the long run, but Toughness is a recurring problem with the system that goes well beyond Marines.



#89 Lynata

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:52 AM

I agree that the arbitrary restriction which says that Astartes weapons randomly stop functioning for non-Astartes is silly, although I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be a penalty associated with using them if you aren't in Power Armour, or don't have Unnatural Strength.

 

Aye, depending on how heavy they are, or if they have notable recoil. Right now it's just a bit silly when a Human can swing around a Civilian heavy bolter that weighs more, is bulkier, and has a higher rate of fire, with a larger calibre .. but is supposed to shoot like a one-armed monkey as soon as he wields the smaller and lighter Astartes boltgun.  :D

 

I liked the Strength requirement introduced in the Inquisitor's Handbook. I understand FFG is a different design team, but it's still a bit sad to see this idea not having made a comeback.

 

Though some general penalty is probably justified given the different ergonomics (a bit tricky though, given the wide range of shapes Human characters may take due to their homeworld's environment). My criticism is less based on wielding a Marine's gun, anyways, but rather that it's hard for me to grasp the idea of the Human weapons have to be so much weaker. A Strength requirement for boltguns would be fitting in general, imho.

 

As for the stuff about Toughness - here you're arguing for a complete rewrite of the way the game handles damage. You *could* have just done it with more Wounds and that probably would have been easier in the long run, but Toughness is a recurring problem with the system that goes well beyond Marines.

 

Yep, it's messed up for Humans as well.

 

Some time ago I suggested a reworked damage system in the Only War forum as the RAW are not that hard to replace in this regard, but ... not playtested so far. Feel free to comment here how you think it'd handle, though - feedback is always interesting. :)

 

What I'd find interesting in its application to Space Marines is how the Astartes would end up showing injury after bad injury without actually dying quickly. He'd be like the guy in the Dawn of War intro, still moving to prop up that flag even though his body is riddled with bullet holes, soldiering through the pain. At the same time, however, he is no longer invulnerable - anything that gets through the armour, be it an autogun round or a lasgun blast, is going to do something. His advantage is that it takes more damage to cripple a location than with a normal Human, who would drop far quicker.

In essence, the chance to incur injuries is roughly similar with both characters ... the Astartes can just suffer more of them before he goes down.

 

I believe that such an approach would make for a grittier gameplay as well as improved balance between the character types without sacrificing what makes them unique. It depends a lot on whether you imagine Space Marines pushing through a hail of bullets ricocheting off their naked skin, or whether you like the idea of them getting badly injured yet still not stopping until they've finished the job.


Edited by Lynata, 19 August 2014 - 11:59 AM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)




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