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YT-2400 Weapons Load Out - Approaching It A Different Way


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#1 FTS Gecko

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:10 AM

OK, I know a lot of people are excited for the YT-2400, and I'm one of them... but does anyone else think it's weapons load out is... curious... to say the least?

 

Main weapon = 2 dice, 360 turret.  Can take the cannon upgrade and the missile upgrade.  The Outrider title allows you to use a cannon upgrade like a turret - at the expense of your main weapon.

 

Now, a HLC turret (and even an Autoblaster turret) sound like they could be fun to play around with, but this seems to me like a rather convoluted way to do things.

 

Would it have been simpler to give the YT-2400 a 3-dice fixed-forward arc main weapon, and the Turret upgrade to allow it to use a Blaster Turret or Ion Turret?  Would such an approach have been better, or worse?  Would it have even been an opportunity to introduce a new turret upgrade card which could add more options to the HWK and Y-Wing as well?

 

I know this is a completely redundant question, just interested in people's opinions on the YT-2400 load out.


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#2 Engine25

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:16 AM

OK, I know a lot of people are excited for the YT-2400, and I'm one of them... but does anyone else think it's weapons load out is... curious... to say the least?

 

Main weapon = 2 dice, 360 turret.  Can take the cannon upgrade and the missile upgrade.  The Outrider title allows you to use a cannon upgrade like a turret - at the expense of your main weapon.

 

Now, a HLC turret (and even an Autoblaster turret) sound like they could be fun to play around with, but this seems to me like a rather convoluted way to do things.

 

Would it have been simpler to give the YT-2400 a 3-dice fixed-forward arc main weapon, and the Turret upgrade to allow it to use a Blaster Turret or Ion Turret?  Would such an approach have been better, or worse?  Would it have even been an opportunity to introduce a new turret upgrade card which could add more options to the HWK and Y-Wing as well?

 

I know this is a completely redundant question, just interested in people's opinions on the YT-2400 load out.

 

Blaster Turret is in a word... terrible.  You can get more mileage out of it by giving the ship a Recon Spec, but even so, you could probably spend those points better elsewhere.  Now, I'm not sure I'll ever equip the HLC onto the Outrider Turret, I'll likely just use it as a forward facing cannon.  However, the HLC Turret can do much more damage at a greater range, and even without it, I'd like to keep my Range 3 band for my turret weapon, even if it is only 2 dice.


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#3 Jo Jo

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:21 AM

Yeah they didn't do that with the YT-2400 so it is redundant.

 

If the dial is YT-1300 like, you can probably get away with just keeping the HLC fixed forward. If something does get in behind you, you do have the 360 turret as insurance. If you do opt for the HLC + Turret combo, I do think that with Barrel roll, it might not be too difficult to keep the HLC at range 2 to 3 so you can shoot. My problem is that its 12 damn points for the combo. Thats a Bandit sqd pilot.

 

They do need another turret upgrade. I wouldn't mind seeing a "Medium laser cannon turret" or the like. Range 2-3 with 3 attack dice. Maybe require TL, but you don't have to spend it to shoot so you can use it on the attack. Like IPM. Another cannon option wouldn't be bad either. IMO the HLC is the only good cannon. The Ion Cannon kind of sucks and autoblaster is near useless.


Edited by Jo Jo, 24 July 2014 - 08:22 AM.

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#4 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:32 AM

Would it have been simpler to give the YT-2400 a 3-dice fixed-forward arc main weapon, and the Turret upgrade to allow it to use a Blaster Turret or Ion Turret?  Would such an approach have been better, or worse?  Would it have even been an opportunity to introduce a new turret upgrade card which could add more options to the HWK and Y-Wing as well?
 
I know this is a completely redundant question, just interested in people's opinions on the YT-2400 load out.


Maybe it would have been simpler, but wouldn't have been as thematic. Like the YT-1300, the YT-2400 has a pair of centrally mounted gun emplacements with 360-degree fields of fire, but didn't have dedicated forward cannons--let alone cannons that would match military-grade hardware like that carried by X-wings or TIE Interceptors. So even without upgrades the ship should reflect that loadout, and does.

But, your knowledgeable Star Wars geek objects, didn't Dash Rendar replace the Outrider's guns with dual heavy laser cannons? And in fact he did, which the game's Outrider title nicely reflects. At the (hopefully) appropriate cost, you can upgrade any old YT-2400 to the Outrider by adding the title and the Heavy Laser Cannon upgrade.

And even if you set aside the theme, having a standard forward-firing primary would mean the design wasn't parallel with the YT-1300, which is bad because parallelism is a cheap and easy way to make sure players have an idea what to do with your new game element. It's also a problem because there's no turret upgrade that fits the canon Outrider; they'd have to develop a new one, which then has to be balanced not only on the YT-2400 but on the Y-wing and HWK as well (and I don't think anyone really wants to see those ships equipped with the turret equivalent of a Heavy Laser Cannon).

I really, really like the design of the YT-2400 in the game. I'm psyched to have it in my hands, and have been ever since I first saw it.
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#5 Engine25

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:37 AM

I definitely think they should have put a new cannon in the set, but sadly it appears there is not one.


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#6 FTS Gecko

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:39 AM

It seems like an odd solution they've devised for the ship.  Give the YT-2400 a low-powered turret as standard, but give it the Cannon upgrade slot, and let the Outrider Title further upgrade a cannon to a turret at a massive points cost and at the expense of the original primary weapon...  :blink:

 

I can see that they're obviously trying to avoid a similar scenario to the oddball double Falcon lists we saw following the release of the YT-1300, (there's only ONE Millennium Falcon, so why do we keep seeing 2?) but it seems like they're going the long way around in order to do it.

 

At the same time, it doesn't really help differentiate the YT-2400 from the YT-1300.  As it stands, the stock YT-2400 and stock YT-1300 both use the same primary weapon.  It feels like a fixed forward weapon & turret upgrade would have been simpler to implement, and it almost feels like something of a missed opportunity.


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#7 Lagomorphia

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:43 AM

Would it have been simpler to give the YT-2400 a 3-dice fixed-forward arc main weapon, and the Turret upgrade to allow it to use a Blaster Turret or Ion Turret?  Would such an approach have been better, or worse?

 

Worse. Blaster Turret is so bad it might as well not exist. That limits the Outrider to the Ion Cannon turret, which is kind of a waste of the ship. Plus turrets only go to range 2.

They did it right, the 360 cannon/foward cannon with a weaker 360 attack works much better than an obese Y-wing would.


Edited by Lagomorphia, 24 July 2014 - 08:43 AM.

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#8 Sparklelord

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:46 AM

A new turret card would have been nice, because as Engine25 said, Blaster Turret's terrible and Ion Cannon Turret is old.

I agree that what they did was a convoluted way of doing it.

But, what they did makes it feel a lot like what was the case (albeit automatically) with the named YT-1300 pilots: that it was, at its core, a bulk freighter...but one that was easy to customize. If you compare its stats to the Outer Rim Smuggler, you see that it gets -1 hull, +1 shield, +1 agility. Plus the barrel rolls. That's a pretty good deal for a successor model to the YT-1300.
And then, if you want it to compete with the Falcon, which is kind of what's implied that all three named pilots are flying (given the improved stats), you have the Outrider title to give it a unique kind of customization that you can do to it and more control over it to boot.
(Vorpal Sword ninja'd this point for me, and said it better. Meh.)

I'd say that, in principle, the turret upgrade slot could have been what they used. But, the only reason you'd use the existing turret upgrades over the existing cannon upgrades is for the 360o feature. If the cannons could always be fired at 360o, no one would ever use a turret (since they're just completely outclassed).

Ion Cannon Turret vs. Ion Cannon:
3 attack vs. 3 attack
Identical effect
5 cost vs. 3 cost
1-2 range vs. 1-3 range
 
Blaster Turret vs. Heavy Laser Cannon or Autoblaster:
3 attack vs. 4 attack or 3 attack
Attack (focus) header + spend the focus to attack vs. No headers/no spending requirements for either
No effect vs. Change your crits to hits or Hit results not cancellable by defense dice
4 cost vs. 7 cost or 5 cost
1-2 range vs. 2-3 range or 1 range

#9 Engine25

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:49 AM

It seems like an odd solution they've devised for the ship.  Give the YT-2400 a low-powered turret as standard, but give it the Cannon upgrade slot, and let the Outrider Title further upgrade a cannon to a turret at a massive points cost and at the expense of the original primary weapon...  :blink:

 

I can see that they're obviously trying to avoid a similar scenario to the oddball double Falcon lists we saw following the release of the YT-1300, (there's only ONE Millennium Falcon, so why do we keep seeing 2?) but it seems like they're going the long way around in order to do it.

 

At the same time, it doesn't really help differentiate the YT-2400 from the YT-1300.  As it stands, the stock YT-2400 and stock YT-1300 both use the same primary weapon.  It feels like a fixed forward weapon & turret upgrade would have been simpler to implement, and it almost feels like something of a missed opportunity.

 

There is only ONE Millenium Falcon, represented by the title card in the game.  There are THOUSANDS of YT-1300s.  It is far from unique.  It is a mass-produced personal freighter.  It also makes perfect sense, from a fluff point of view, that the base models have similar stats, as the 2400 is a later model in the same line which is also mass-produced, similar to the redesigns any given car model gets each year. It has higher agility and the capability to barrel-roll, which the 1300 can do (with an in-game upgrade) but its taxing for it.  Makes a lot of sense that they are similar but the 2400 is just a little more advanced.

 

Now from a game design POV, I agree they seem similar, which I think is a big impetus for the function of the Outrider Title.  The Outrider can now do more damage than a Falcon, but with some pretty severe drawbacks.


Edited by Engine25, 24 July 2014 - 08:51 AM.

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#10 bobbywhiskey

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

The outrider +hlc is going to be absolutely gangbusters. Especially on the dash version. People are underestimating how fast and recklessly this thing can fly through the middle of the board asteroids be damned. That combined with high PS and barrel roll, the blind spot won't be a problem, and you're actually encouraged to shoot things from range 3, so you have 3 green dice in return. Add on either a merc co pilot or recon spec and some debris tokens instead of asteroids so you can even land ON the things and still not care. Yes it's like 50 points, but that's what the falcons cost now, and it's substantially BETTER against phantoms and swarms, and falcons for that matter....so yeah.



#11 FTS Gecko

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:27 AM

There is only ONE Millenium Falcon, represented by the title card in the game.  There are THOUSANDS of YT-1300s.  It is far from unique.  It is a mass-produced personal freighter.  It also makes perfect sense, from a fluff point of view, that the base models have similar stats, as the 2400 is a later model in the same line which is also mass-produced, similar to the redesigns any given car model gets each year. It has higher agility and the capability to barrel-roll, which the 1300 can do (with an in-game upgrade) but its taxing for it.  Makes a lot of sense that they are similar but the 2400 is just a little more advanced.

 

Now from a game design POV, I agree they seem similar, which I think is a big impetus for the function of the Outrider Title.  The Outrider can now do more damage than a Falcon, but with some pretty severe drawbacks.

 

Indeed.  However, in-game the stock YT-1300 - piloted by the Outer Rim Smuggler - has lower stats for primary weapon, hull and shields than the named pilots do.  The implication being that Han, Chewie and Lando are all piloting the Millennium Falcon, with or without it's named title card.

 

Now, if the Falcon title card had given the YT-1300 the improved weaponry, hull and shield upgrades as well as the evade action, we could say there is only ONE Millennium Falcon.

 

We would have also seen far fewer Millennium Fortress builds.

 

Worse. Blaster Turret is so bad it might as well not exist. That limits the Outrider to the Ion Cannon turret, which is kind of a waste of the ship. Plus turrets only go to range 2.

They did it right, the 360 cannon/forward cannon with a weaker 360 attack works much better than an obese Y-wing would.

 

Now, you say that, but doesn't the existing solution effectively limit the Outrider to the HLC in exactly the same way, as the Autoblaster is so bad that it might as well not exist (and only goes to range one) and the Ion Cannon would be kind of a waste of the upgrade and the ship?

 

As I said earlier, FFG could have used the expansion to implement a NEW turret weapon in the game - thus skipping over the convoluted solution and adding more flexibility to the Y-Wing and HWK at the same time.  They could also have introduced a new cannon, either way it seems like a missed opportunity.

 

Maybe it would have been simpler, but wouldn't have been as thematic. Like the YT-1300, the YT-2400 has a pair of centrally mounted gun emplacements with 360-degree fields of fire, but didn't have dedicated forward cannons--let alone cannons that would match military-grade hardware like that carried by X-wings or TIE Interceptors. So even without upgrades the ship should reflect that loadout, and does...


...I really, really like the design of the YT-2400 in the game. I'm psyched to have it in my hands, and have been ever since I first saw it.
 
Boom, there's the kind of comment I like.  Makes perfect sense explained in that manner, and even if I remain bemused by the application I can see what is trying to be achieved.
 
As I said, I'm a fan of the design as well and can't wait to get my hands on one.

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#12 Skargoth

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:32 AM

I think the two attack dice is directly related to barrel roll and the ease the ship will have getting into range 1. Similarly, the HLC+Turret turns that same mechanic on its head.


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#13 Chris R

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:25 AM

Honestly I find the YT-2400+HLC+Outrider combo to be a bit bland. If you are going to spend that many points why not just go the little extra to take han with a gunner? One less die, no range 1 blind spot, and rerolls oozing from every orifice. Oh and no reverting crits to normal hits either... You can't take a gunner with the outrider because you gave up your primary weapon so don't try to fly it like it's another YT-1300 because the YT-1300 is much better at being a YT-1300 than the YT-2400 will ever be.

What really sets the YT-2400 apart so far is it's ability to use the auto blaster as a turret. There is no other turret that can do what this gun does, and I would say even with the limited range it easily turns the YT-2400 into a heavy hitting brawler.

Still ultimately there are still quite a few new upgrades in the expansion that have unknown abilities so maybe this will change when we find out more. From the looks of it they have Dash as both a pilot and a crew and I can see Dash's droid companion LE-BO is one of the other crew cards. I suspect LE-BO may also be one of the other pilot options. If that is the case I am willing to bet their abilities are going to combo off eachother. Depending on what those combos are we may see any of the options become much more appealing, but just based on what is known at present I can see an auto blaster wielding Outrider cutting down a tie swarm like it was made of butter with the right support. Not too sure the HLC will be as effective against high agility targets because it can't just keep rolling until it gets something through the way that the YT-1300 can.

Edited by Chris R, 25 July 2014 - 07:55 AM.


#14 FatherTurin

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:53 AM

I love the way the outrider title works: it's expensive, creates possibilities and risks, and is a unique mechanic.
My first thought is the following:
Dash Rendar, PTL, Nien Nunb, title, HLC, EU
It's a TON of points (56 to be exact) and without knowing the dial it's a little bit of a waste to daydream about, but with the HLC you get not only 4 dice in a turret, but there's no extra dice at R3, and boost + barrel roll will keep you out of the R1 donut, with Nien to shed PTL stress.
Again, not knowing the dial and other pilots, this is kind of an exercise in futility, but I can't wait to try out this kind of load. HLC turret, getting out of R1, 2 evade dice and pretty much ignoring obstacles? It's like a honey badger.
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#15 Chris R

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 11:13 PM

Looking at the cards fanned out in the pictures it looks like Dash is included as a crew card too. Dash's droid companion LE-BO appears to be included as a crew upgrade as well as one of the other pilots. I wonder what LE-BO's abilities are going to be. As excited as I am for the Rebel Aces expansion for giving us Kyle and Jan as crew, giving us the ability to add crew to B-wings, ect... I am just as excited about getting Dash, LE-BO, and Lando as crew choices on top of the 360° arc cannon shenanigans. Not to mention it is the first rebel ship to come with the gunner crew card.

#16 Hrathen

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 11:25 PM

I actually really like what they did with the YT-2400. It feels like a ship to fill the whole between the ORS and all the named YT-1300's. And that is a whole that I wanted to see filled.

I've said this before, but 2 attack dice is not a terrible thing. Sure we would all prefer our ships to have 3 but there are plenty of great ships with only 2 attack dice. It does mean that you usually need to spend an action or get some other help to score damage, But with so many 1 (and now 0) agility dice ships out there 2 attack dice is great. Lots of 2s shooting at something like B-wings Falcons, or Decimators is better than a few 3s.

I am excited because the YT-2400 will fly so different from the Falcon. Where Han+Gunner means I spend my action on evade very turn, YT-2400 has two agility (and is cheaper) so it can afford to throw some upgrades/actions offensively.

You can do some much with those 2 attack dice, Think Predator, Outmaneuver, maybe even Gunner.

I feel like they are giving us something that feels very new and cool.

If anything I am wondering if the Decimator will feel a little bit more like the poor man's falcon.
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#17 Introverdant

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 11:34 PM

 

Would it have been simpler to give the YT-2400 a 3-dice fixed-forward arc main weapon, and the Turret upgrade to allow it to use a Blaster Turret or Ion Turret?  Would such an approach have been better, or worse?

 

Worse. Blaster Turret is so bad it might as well not exist.

 

Disagree. IMO It's solid in dogfight supported by Kyle and/or Garven. It is fantastic in Epic, supported by Comms Boosters.



#18 Lagomorphia

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:25 AM

 

It seems like an odd solution they've devised for the ship.  Give the YT-2400 a low-powered turret as standard, but give it the Cannon upgrade slot, and let the Outrider Title further upgrade a cannon to a turret at a massive points cost and at the expense of the original primary weapon...  :blink:

 

I can see that they're obviously trying to avoid a similar scenario to the oddball double Falcon lists we saw following the release of the YT-1300, (there's only ONE Millennium Falcon, so why do we keep seeing 2?) but it seems like they're going the long way around in order to do it.

 

At the same time, it doesn't really help differentiate the YT-2400 from the YT-1300.  As it stands, the stock YT-2400 and stock YT-1300 both use the same primary weapon.  It feels like a fixed forward weapon & turret upgrade would have been simpler to implement, and it almost feels like something of a missed opportunity.

 

There is only ONE Millenium Falcon, represented by the title card in the game.  There are THOUSANDS of YT-1300s.  It is far from unique.  It is a mass-produced personal freighter.  It also makes perfect sense, from a fluff point of view, that the base models have similar stats, as the 2400 is a later model in the same line which is also mass-produced, similar to the redesigns any given car model gets each year. It has higher agility and the capability to barrel-roll, which the 1300 can do (with an in-game upgrade) but its taxing for it.  Makes a lot of sense that they are similar but the 2400 is just a little more advanced.

 

Now from a game design POV, I agree they seem similar, which I think is a big impetus for the function of the Outrider Title.  The Outrider can now do more damage than a Falcon, but with some pretty severe drawbacks.

 

And arguably by the stat buff, which I think is what the previous poster meant.
 

 

Now, you say that, but doesn't the existing solution effectively limit the Outrider to the HLC in exactly the same way, as the Autoblaster is so bad that it might as well not exist (and only goes to range one) and the Ion Cannon would be kind of a waste of the upgrade and the ship?

 

As I said earlier, FFG could have used the expansion to implement a NEW turret weapon in the game - thus skipping over the convoluted solution and adding more flexibility to the Y-Wing and HWK at the same time.  They could also have introduced a new cannon, either way it seems like a missed opportunity.

 

 

People have expressed interest in all three. Limiting Outrider to HLC is still potent, whereas as you said Ion is kind of a waste on this ship. Same logic applies to Ion Cannon Turret.

FFG did it right by having it the other way arould. You get a weak turret and can have a forward cannon or put the cannon in the weak turret's mounting (removing it) for 360 fire.


Edited by Lagomorphia, 27 July 2014 - 03:28 AM.

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