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#21 Tenebrae

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 07:20 AM

Last I checked: no BS penalty.

So lower BS would  from having only one aptitude when buying it up?

Like a heavy gunner?



#22 Magellan

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 07:30 AM

Oh. Well, then, without a BS penalty, I would bump them up from worse than useless to "actually pretty darn good", depending on whether the GM limits your ability to get implants.


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#23 Lateinshowing

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:20 AM

Oh. Well, then, without a BS penalty, I would bump them up from worse than useless to "actually pretty darn good", depending on whether the GM limits your ability to get implants.

And with the Shield and those specialties, Ogryns become freaking scary. They can use weapons like they didn't have clumsy, two handed rifles and melee weapons one-handed, get double DoS on full auto attacks, wield any heavy weapon......


Edited by Lateinshowing, 28 July 2014 - 01:39 PM.


#24 Routa-maa

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

Ogryn Bone 'Ead dual wielding two Best craft Eviscerators. That is a scene where i think even Marine would think twice before attacking.


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#25 Magellan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:51 AM

I wouldn't even dignify Shield of Humanity by including it, but if I were a space marine of comparable XP to an ogryn that can dual-wield eviscerators, I'd bring out my power weapon.

 

Which is why the ogryn should have been dual-wielding power weapons.


Edited by Magellan, 29 July 2014 - 04:52 AM.

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#26 Routa-maa

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:59 AM

I wouldn't even dignify Shield of Humanity by including it, but if I were a space marine of comparable XP to an ogryn that can dual-wield eviscerators, I'd bring out my power weapon.

 

Which is why the ogryn should have been dual-wielding power weapons.

 

Oh in that case *rummages around for Hammer of the Emperor book*

 

Ah ha, Hammer of the Emperor Variant Equipment Patterns section p.131

Melee Weapons Pattern Positive table 3-26

 

Incredibly Dense - Never destroyed when parried/parrying power weapon, gains Ogryn-Proof.

 

Cheesy I know but by rules it can be done, I must think every avenue as my game group friends have much more experience than I have in RPG and know many ways to Min-Max.

 

As a GM leading our OW campaign I would deny this monstrosity ever to come alive.


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#27 Terraneaux

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:08 PM

In any case, an Ogryn bonehead can use power swords. Plus Killing Strike got a huge buff in OW in that it doesn't need an all-out attack action anymore.

 

My players in the Penal Regiment game I'm running rolled 'Incredibly Dense' for their combat knives, so technically the Ogryn can use it, heh. Though he has a scavenged Big Choppa that's a way better idea.



#28 Magellan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:34 PM

Well... it's encouraging to hear that banning HotE and SoH was the right choice. At the same time, I'm full of rage at this increasingly unusable system. Are they deliberately making the newer books unplayable to drive people toward Dark Heresy 2?


I am the latest model of a Fabricator-General
My body isn't nearly as much animal as mineral
My learnedness is legend; my accomplishments historical
For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#29 Terraneaux

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:57 PM

It's not the right choice, Magellan, because you banned them without understanding the rules inside. You're way off base.


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#30 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:02 AM

Well... it's encouraging to hear that banning HotE and SoH was the right choice. At the same time, I'm full of rage at this increasingly unusable system. Are they deliberately making the newer books unplayable to drive people toward Dark Heresy 2?

I find banning books outright to be a terrible, terrible idea, because even the worst of books can be a great source of a wide range of stuff. For example, even though The Lathe Worlds and Book of Judgement for Dark Heresy are the best examples of the worst kind of power creep, they still remain my favourite books in the Dark Heresy line so far.

And I don't think they are doing it deliberately, I think they just don't know what to do, and end up forcing content, such as "What do we fill the book with?", "I dunno. Talents section? Come up with some Talents."

This, combined with dodgy or apparently non-existent playtesting, the fact that I don't think anyone on the team(s) have actually read through the full ruleset in years, yet keeps copy-pasting content, and terrible, terrible proofreading, leads to the perceived issues.

So I don't think they are deliberately making the newer books unplayable to push people into going into Dark Heresy 2. At the same time, I see your frustration.

Dark Heresy has stopped, and the last books were mechanically questionable.

Rogue Trader: Faith and Coin has some of the most broken equipment in Rogue Trader so far and all the tables seem to be insanely off.

Black Crusade has received 4 character development supplements in a row, all of which are relatively shallow on the added character advancement (much due to the largely useless Advanced Archetype system, which offers nothing but pre-generated Hulks of various flavours). With Tome of Decay, they also appeared to have rolled in a general expansion supplement, instead of focusing specifically on Nurgle and Nurglites, which is an odd and jarring decision that mostly robs Black Crusade's future of the implied balance between the four, on a metagame level.

Both Hammer of the Emperor and Shield of Humanity for Only War is pretty much a collection of Advanced Specialities (which is a terrible system, especially for Only War's free-form aptitude-based advancement) and new Talents (many which are just plain broken or gameyfies basic roleplaying (Excellent Cook or Persuasive Charm, anyone?).

And then we had the debacle with Dark Heresy 2. The first beta was moving entirely within line with this development, and the only reason they "rolled back" to an Only War base was because the fanbase pointed out the many, many, many flaws with their approach. Unfortunately, FFG then decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and again copy-paste a previous Core Rulebook and edit it, as if the fanbase had stepped on someone's glorious dream and now we'd insulted this someone and now we'll have to make do.

So I see no reason why Dark Heresy 2 wouldn't continue on the path. Like we've seen in both the original DH2 beta and in every Only War Supplement so far, I expect to see increased gameyfication of roleplaying, superfluous mechanics, and things generally running on empty. I think they've painted themselves into a corner, and they don't know what to do.

So don't be so quick to see conspiracies and shout off with their heads.
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#31 Magellan

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:09 AM

I find banning books outright to be a terrible, terrible idea, because even the worst of books can be a great source of a wide range of stuff.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As you know, I don't share it.

 

So don't be so quick to see conspiracies and shout off with their heads.

It was intended as more of a snarky jab than a serious suggestion that they're conspiring against us. After all, you shouldn't attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence.


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For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#32 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:04 AM

It was intended as more of a snarky jab than a serious suggestion that they're conspiring against us. After all, you shouldn't attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence.

I may have come off as more confrontational than intended. I didn't mean to actually imply that you claimed conspiracy. You are entirely correct in that you shouldn't attribute malice for what can easily be explained by incompetence.

This all being said, I don't think that FFG overall is incompetent. Yes, there are serious issues with their playtesting and proofreading, for reasons beyond me (financial troubles, or a lack of funding to WH40kRP products?). And yes, there are even more serious issues with the direction the game line has been heading.

But it hasn't been a lightning flash from clear sky. It's been a gradual process. We've seen the condensation of Skills into a very small list of skills of greatly varying usability (Awareness is now the single most used skill in my games, because it does everything from see if someone's sneaking up on you, to trying to find a needle in a haystack, to see if you can find a specific person in a crowd) and sense (Tech-Use is now used to determine the structural integrity of a mineshaft even at a glance, Evaluate was folded into Commerce, despite Evaluate being more than just judging monetary value, etc). We've seen how Psyniscience has gone from being an aspect of psykerdom to being something as mundane as seeing movements in dust, doable by anyone.

At the same time as Skills have been condensed, we keep seeing a laundry list of Talents upon Talents that do things that previously would've been handled through roleplaying or Skill Tests.

We've seen long, long, long, loooooooooooong-standing issues that have been debated a thousand times being flat-out ignored, Core book after Core book (binary Dodge, hooo!).

Overall, however, WH40kRP still remains my favourite system, in essence. I think really good things can be done with it.

I think they just lack direction and a vision, and the strength of will to see that vision through, come hell or high water. It's not incompetence, they're just uninspired and have painted themselves into a corner. I can see no other explanation for, for example, the condensation of Skills (which isn't without it's merits) but the continued expansion of Talents.

It makes me feel like the overall WH40kRP line doesn't even have a lead designer. It's just sprawling, as if four people sit in a room and spitball until they come up with a concept, and then hire some freelance writers to write sections that doesn't necessarily relate overly much to eachother, then smack it together and hope it works.

I would feel much better if I just knew what the hell was going on.
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#33 Magellan

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:09 AM

We've seen how Psyniscience has gone from being an aspect of psykerdom to being something as mundane as seeing movements in dust, doable by anyone.

Everything else aside, where is this from? I'm aware that they (stupidly) removed the prerequisite from Psyniscience in Only War (though the text of the psyker trait implies that it is required to purchase the skill), but I don't know what that 'movements in dust' stuff is.


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For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#34 Myrion

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:16 AM

I swear I read that in the OW core rule book, but I can't find it right now.
It's an example on the use of psyniscience, recognizing that the patterns in the dust aren't random but make out heretical markings or something, as an example of how to notice witchcraft from very far away.



#35 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:52 AM

We've seen how Psyniscience has gone from being an aspect of psykerdom to being something as mundane as seeing movements in dust, doable by anyone.

Everything else aside, where is this from? I'm aware that they (stupidly) removed the prerequisite from Psyniscience in Only War (though the text of the psyker trait implies that it is required to purchase the skill), but I don't know what that 'movements in dust' stuff is.

Unless they changed it in later betas, there was a rationale mentioned for non-psykers getting Psyniscience, and it was something along the lines of disturbed dust and smells or something like that.

I swear I read that in the OW core rule book, but I can't find it right now.
It's an example on the use of psyniscience, recognizing that the patterns in the dust aren't random but make out heretical markings or something, as an example of how to notice witchcraft from very far away.

Didn't realize that rationale was also in Only War. It's still ridiculous, though.

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#36 Magellan

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:56 AM

Ahh, in Dark Heresy 2? Haven't checked it out.


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My body isn't nearly as much animal as mineral
My learnedness is legend; my accomplishments historical
For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#37 Myrion

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:22 AM

Ohh, yeah, there it is.

Okay, so it isn't in OW, must've gotten that mixed up. And yeah it's weird, although the alternative is just to make awareness even more important...



#38 Terraneaux

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

Fgdsfg, you make some points, but the condensation of the skill system has been a great thing. There were too many skills which were superfluous or WAY too specific before.


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#39 Myrion

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:38 PM

Or skills were/are too expensive.

I still need a lot of skills for an effective character, but most are expensive enough that I shy away from them because I could get some really awesome talents at the same price.

I think I talked about this before: Both approaches, lots of specific skills and few, broad skills, can work very well, but it changes the tone of the game and must have consequences on the price.

Fewer, broader skills will generally lead to characters that can do a lot of stuff.
FATE f.ex. has all characters with the same 8 (iirc) skills, because they're heroes and of course they can all do all the heroing. They won't be as good at some stuff as others, but they'll be better at some other stuff. The skills are neither unique nor particularly defining: You can regularly shift them around! They're simply the basics of what you do and your character feels effective and competent because he cannot be otherwise.

More skills, more narrowly defined, makes skills more of a defining characteristic. You'll need more of them to be effective, but it feels more realistic, makes more intuitive sense, which can be important.
GURPS is a good example here: Tons and tons of skills, from Accounting over Dreaming to Zen Archery. Of course, some of that is because GURPS is Generic, and there are skills that only make sense in cinematic sci-fi campaigns while others only make sense in a high-fantasy campaign.
All of them are cheap to get a basic level in, and most will allow you to roll against a related skill at a smaller penalty than trying to default from your characteristics. Additionally, modifiers are easy to come by: Simply being out of combat is a +4 bonus (can be +50% chance, will be less the better you already are) for most skills, for example. In GURPS, I can improve my dodging by various options, from the base 25% chance of an average human to 74%! Thus, my character can focus on other skills and not immediately die. (Worth mentioning that GURPS is, the way I've played it, FAR more deadly than Only War.) This way, it is still easy to feel competent, either at one thing (for low point totals) or lots of things (for higher point totals), without having all the skills.  Having high skill is important for being able to ignore penalties, not for being able to do stuff at a basic level. 

Only War and the entire WH40kRP line, I feel, should fall into the second category. Skills should be narrow because knowledge and understanding are compartmentalized, because you should at the start not be a broadly skilled hero. Accordingly, skills should be cheap, so you will never feel that a skill is too big an investment.
They aren't (or at least they don't feel like they are). Moving towards fewer skills could theoretically fix this, because each skill is supposed to make you that much more effective. As it happens, it just overemphasizes some skills(Awareness), while weakening others (Trade).

Further, modifiers for many skills are really hard to come by: How can I get a bonus to my Dodge? Or to my Command?
In Only War, I look at my untrained Dodge of 10%, and think about improving that to 30% and feel that it is hardly worth it, because I'll still be hit far more often than not and there is nothing I can do to change that. My character will at best have a 60% chance to dodge and that would cost a fortune for which I'll be better off getting something else.

So after much rambling, here's the TL;DR:
The condensation of skills is a thing. It has downsides, not so many upsides, but both of that is because it is not done consequently enough. It could have been good, now it's probably at most neutral.
The lack of vision that fgdsfg is bemoaning makes itself felt, here too.


Edited by Myrion, 30 July 2014 - 02:43 PM.


#40 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:11 PM

Fgdsfg, you make some points, but the condensation of the skill system has been a great thing. There were too many skills which were superfluous or WAY too specific before.

You will never sell me on the idea of Tech-Use being used to judge structural integrity or the flat-out removal of Perform skills. Or that the same skill that lets you fly an airplane let's you operate a jump pack. Or that Evaluate was rolled into Commerce, and by that logic, it should now be Commerce that is used to judge where the best point of a piece of cover is.

Were there some superfluous skills? Yes. I dumped Blather.


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Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.





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