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#1 richsabre

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:59 AM

just in case in all the excitement someone has missed it, there is a new article up

 

http://www.fantasyfl...s.asp?eidn=4938


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#2 PsychoRocka

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:04 AM

Should've been Road Darkens news or more spoilers for the later ring maker APs =P
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#3 Rapier

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:37 PM

I like the shift to selling nightmare packs as groups of 3 (Khazad, and now this). Khazad was cheaper than buying 3 individual packs :P

For Over hill and under hill I do feel that it didn't really need this :P (Although I will be interested to see if some of the mechanics that some people found annoying like riddle are tweaked a bit).


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#4 Raven1015

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:52 PM


For Over hill and under hill I do feel that it didn't really need this :P (Although I will be interested to see if some of the mechanics that some people found annoying like riddle are tweaked a bit).

 

I can tell you that the riddle mechanic was not touched at all, other than making it more difficult/punishing.


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#5 PsychoRocka

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:15 PM

Yeah these nightmare packs seems to be the worst of any released to date to be completely honest.
Riddle mechanic isn't fixed, it's just made even more random and difficult (but not in a good way) and that card in the troll quest that instantly puts you on stage 2 is just insane, that's pretty much a "you lose" card if you get it in the first round or two.

Over Misty Mountains Grim looks pretty good but nothing too special.

 

Nightmare Khazad-Dum is amazing and Dwarrowdelf should be as well, really don't think that Saga nightmare packs work very well......
First off most Saga quests are already pretty hard to begin with, (second hobbit box has some very difficult scenarios and the trolls can be pretty nasty too...) secondly they are already more complex with the extra baggins hero, his resources and interactions with the encounter deck (not to mention they are normally alot more complex simply because they need to be very thematic and similar to the events in the book).

I personally don't think they should do Saga Nightmare....... we have so many quests as it is, I'd MUCH rather nightmare versions of the cycles and expansions instead or at least first not to mention (probably with the exception of Khazad Dum cause its just that good) that I always prefer new quests over just new versions of already existing quests.

To summarize, love nightmare decks but think that there could be a little less focus on them, definitely don't think there should be nightmare versions of Saga and look forward to more nightmare decks that are in an actual cycle and are as good as Seventh level and Into the Pit.


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#6 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:31 PM

 

For Over hill and under hill I do feel that it didn't really need this :P (Although I will be interested to see if some of the mechanics that some people found annoying like riddle are tweaked a bit).

 

I can tell you that the riddle mechanic was not touched at all, other than making it more difficult/punishing.

 

Difficult? It's not difficult. It's random. And nightmare just made odds even less in your favor. The only description that could fit this kind of "difficulty" is artificial difficulty.


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#7 booored

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:37 PM

It is just a random effect. The forced deck design is stability. There are a few quests like this. Your deck design shouldn't care if it wins on turn 3 or 53. It needs to be able to just sit around at no risk. Easy to build a deck for.
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#8 PsychoRocka

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 12:08 AM

 

 

For Over hill and under hill I do feel that it didn't really need this :P (Although I will be interested to see if some of the mechanics that some people found annoying like riddle are tweaked a bit).

 

I can tell you that the riddle mechanic was not touched at all, other than making it more difficult/punishing.

 

Difficult? It's not difficult. It's random. And nightmare just made odds even less in your favor. The only description that could fit this kind of "difficulty" is artificial difficulty.

 

yeah the riddle mechanic really is the worst one so far, completely based on luck.



#9 Rapier

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:52 AM

 

 

For Over hill and under hill I do feel that it didn't really need this :P (Although I will be interested to see if some of the mechanics that some people found annoying like riddle are tweaked a bit).

 

I can tell you that the riddle mechanic was not touched at all, other than making it more difficult/punishing.

 

Difficult? It's not difficult. It's random. And nightmare just made odds even less in your favor. The only description that could fit this kind of "difficulty" is artificial difficulty.

 

 

If it's random and the odds are against you then that is a difficulty, If you random badly it can become impossible to win. 

I don't see why you would consider this not a difficulty? It's just not one that you can mitigate. You can however still build a deck that is more likely to overcome the randomness (a deck that can last a long time, dealing with all the optional riddles as non-riddles for instance, a deck that's mono-colour and mono-cost ect.).

It's pretty similar to the difficulty of any quests in the game really. The same things you need to do in your skill of playing and deck building.


I don't think the nightmare decks take away from design of new quests though, so I don't think it's a problem that we're getting these. I just think that some quests are 'already' hard even for the card pool and it would be better to focus nightmare expansions on the older quests that can't compete with players.

Does it add boons like in the new saga?



#10 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:44 AM

 

If it's random and the odds are against you then that is a difficulty, If you random badly it can become impossible to win. 

I don't see why you would consider this not a difficulty? It's just not one that you can mitigate. You can however still build a deck that is more likely to overcome the randomness (a deck that can last a long time, dealing with all the optional riddles as non-riddles for instance, a deck that's mono-colour and mono-cost ect.).

It's pretty similar to the difficulty of any quests in the game really. The same things you need to do in your skill of playing and deck building.


I don't think the nightmare decks take away from design of new quests though, so I don't think it's a problem that we're getting these. I just think that some quests are 'already' hard even for the card pool and it would be better to focus nightmare expansions on the older quests that can't compete with players.

Does it add boons like in the new saga?

 

 

You should feel honored, I've read your full post.

 

Now, if you would read my full post yourself, you'll find that the thing you describe is an "artifical" difficulty, which is always, ALWAYS, a bad thing.

 

And comparing this to the regular quest is just nuts. You can find tons of solutions for most of regular quest. Many different types and kinds of combinations. That's a natural difficulty. In riddle-****, you need to build for it exclusively or have a really lucky run, which is an artificial difficulty. 

 

No, it obviously doesn't.


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#11 Raven1015

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:33 AM

 

 

For Over hill and under hill I do feel that it didn't really need this :P (Although I will be interested to see if some of the mechanics that some people found annoying like riddle are tweaked a bit).

 

I can tell you that the riddle mechanic was not touched at all, other than making it more difficult/punishing.

 

Difficult? It's not difficult. It's random. And nightmare just made odds even less in your favor. The only description that could fit this kind of "difficulty" is artificial difficulty.

 

Artificial difficulty is still difficulty. Making the odds less in your favor is by definition making it more difficult.


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#12 Tracker1

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:45 AM

I'm all for difficult quests, but these look to be pretty extreme, especially for the solo player one hand. I enjoy many of the nightmare scenarios, but for a few of them the difficulty is increased beyond what a solo deck can handle at this point. From reading the description of this set, that seems very likely. I ordered them anyway (completist gene), and I'll see how it goes, but I am a little terrified even to try.

Edited by Tracker1, 24 July 2014 - 08:48 AM.

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#13 booored

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:48 AM

I'm all for difficult quests, but these look to be pretty extreme, especially for the solo player one hand. I enjoy many of the nightmare scenarios, but for a few of them the difficulty is increased beyond what a solo deck can handle at this point.


but is that a bad thing? I would rather the nightmares be impossible than beatable 3/5 times. The card pool si going to grow and our decks are going to get more and more powerful. They should be hard and MUCH harder than some of the packs have been. They need to speak to the future, the future player pool.
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#14 Tracker1

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:58 AM

I'm all for difficult quests, but these look to be pretty extreme, especially for the solo player one hand. I enjoy many of the nightmare scenarios, but for a few of them the difficulty is increased beyond what a solo deck can handle at this point.

but is that a bad thing? I would rather the nightmares be impossible than beatable 3/5 times. The card pool si going to grow and our decks are going to get more and more powerful. They should be hard and MUCH harder than some of the packs have been. They need to speak to the future, the future player pool.

Agreed.
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#15 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:09 AM

Artificial difficulty is a cancer, an abomination of game design and should be avoided by sane people.


Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo, 24 July 2014 - 09:10 AM.

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#16 Raven1015

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:21 AM

This is probably a whole other topic, but I know that many people hate the riddle mechanic and I'm not exactly fond of it myself. My question has always been: what would have been better? That's not a rhetorical question either. I'm genuinely interested in trying to figure out what a better mechanic would have been to represent the riddles, which is a really difficult part of the story to model in this game. Any ideas?


Edited by Raven1015, 24 July 2014 - 09:22 AM.

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#17 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:33 AM

This is probably a whole other topic, but I know that many people hate the riddle mechanic and I'm not exactly fond of it myself. My question has always been: what would have been better? That's not a rhetorical question either. I'm genuinely interested in trying to figure out what a better mechanic would have been to represent the riddles, which is a really difficult part of the story to model in this game. Any ideas?

could they have gotten away with just not doing that part of the story at all?


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#18 alogos

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:51 AM

Some good articles about difficulty :

http://gamedevelopme...--gamedev-14195

http://gamedevelopme...ck--gamedev-322

Both are good overview of skill vs luck, this is the main point of the riddle, they are purely luck and no skill

http://gamedevelopme...y--gamedev-3596 => "artificial" and "designed" are not taken with the same definition as the one trololo used. In this article, the randomness is a "designed" difficulty because it is a choice of the designer to have that as a difficulty, whereas is it "artificial" difficulty for trololo as it is random-based and not scaled with skill.

 

How to make riddle better ?

 

Remove the "or gollum make an immediate attack against bilbo" cards, those are nuts in multiplayer game. Thanks for ruining the game Nightmare mode...

 

Better scale the difficulty of cards. You have to draw 2 per player, so cards are either bad or insanly strong to force you to answer the riddle.

One way could have been to have all card with riddle, very strong and keep the 1 card per player.

 

Reduce the luck factor by softening the lose part : remove a counter if you lose or take 1 damage on a hero / exhaust a hero  to draw another cards. Don't amplify it with "name a card title"... Thanks for ruining the game Nightmare mode...


Edited by alogos, 24 July 2014 - 09:52 AM.


#19 Raven1015

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:12 AM

Thanks for the article links!

 

Interesting ideas, alogos. Perhaps there could have been a kind of time mechanic with time removed when you can't "solve" a riddle. This would have fit with the story as well, with Bilbo only having a certain amount of time to solve each riddle.

 

Sparked by some of the newer quest mechanics we've seen, they also could have gotten rid of the existing riddle mechanic entirely and gone with a set of objective or quest cards to represent the riddles from the book. Then each objective or quest could have had some condition to fill and a certain forced effect while it was the current riddle. I'm not sure exactly what that would look like, but potentially more satisfying.


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#20 booored

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:03 PM

I do not get the riddle hate. All you need is a best designed to deal with it and your good. The riddle mechanism is basically just a stall. All you need is a deck that can win on any amount of turns a VERY stable one. This isn't a hard goal to design a deck for.

As for difficulty, look at it this way.

Rolling a dice is not "hard"... but rolling a 1 is a 1/6 chance. There is nothing you can do to make that chance smaller, the "difficulty" can not be altered by skill and it is NOT difficult to roll a die.. rolling a die is easy. That is the difference between difficulty and randomness. Rolling a 4 with a 4d6 is a harder roll, but not harder to do, as rolling a dice is still just dropping them.

So... is rolling the 4 dice difficult, or is it just a difficult roll. It is a difficult roll. It is not difficult.

Edited by booored, 24 July 2014 - 02:14 PM.

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