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#1 kryzak

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:29 AM

Hey all,

 

I love the great feedback and advice on this forum, so decided to post this up here.  I'm narrowing down on what I want to try for an upcoming small tourney at an FLGS, and I haven't fully decided what I wanted to take outside of the anchor, Echo.

 

My main Echo build that I settled on is:

Echo + ACD + VI + FCS + Rebel Captive (40 pts)

 

ACD+VI is pretty obvious since more people are now taking PS8 and 9 pilots. 

FCS to give Echo some more damage (since I often whiff on 5 attack dice)

Rebel Captive for Phantom mirror matches or to discourage Falcons from shooting at her when I make a mistake. (especially against PTL Han or if I can block the Falcon and get it stressed)

 

I know the other option is Recon Specialist, but I really don't love the RS since I never use up both tokens (I mainly arc dodge with Echo).  I have it on the BH for one of my builds, and he also never uses up 2 tokens either. 

 

Option 1: I've been flying the following for 3-4 games now with the Echo:

- Doom Shulttle (OGP + Vader)

- BH + RS (or Gunner if I don't have FCS on Echo)

100 pts

 

I've destroyed 3 Amigo lists (Soontir, Turr+VI, whisper+VI), 2X2B, and Defender+Mini Swarm lists.  Fighting a Falcon+2X/B/Z list is an uphill battle and I haven't won against it yet.

 

After reading the great battle report by niceas and executor (Spokane Regionals), I'm considering the Echo + 5TIE list, but I only have 4 TIE and don't really want to try to fly 5 TIEs (I'm pretty good at flying 4 TIEs).  But I could be convinced since that list won the regionals and also placed in the top 4.

 

Option 2:

5 TIEs

100 pts

 

Option 3:

2 APs (24)

1 BSP (14)

1 BSP + DTF + Shield (19)

Add Sensor Jammer to Echo (+2 from FCS)

99 pts

 

I would keep the 4 TIES together.  AP/BSPs do blocking and havoc, or focus fire on Falcons, Echo and/or Backstabber deal with wingmen.

 

DTF+Shield helps survivability of the TIEs a little.  Else I can also just do 2 BSP+Swarm to get everyone shooting at PS4, with 98 points to bid for initiative (probably choose to lose it so Echo can arc dodge)

 

Option 4:

BH+Recon

2 AP

100 pts

 

2 APs cause havoc (though it'll almost guarantee I lose 24 points), BH and APs try to deal with Falcon and other big threats while Echo goes around killing. 

 

Option 5:

Doom Shuttle

3 APs

100 pts

 

Doom Shuttle can deal decent damage (with Vader's help), the extra AP gives 6 attack dice and 9 HP (almost like a BH) to deal with Falcons and other 1 agility ships, and cause blockage.

 

Option 6:

Kath + Marksmanship + Gunner (46)

AP (12)

98 points

 

Kath is the stress dealer and will focus on Falcon or big targets to keep them stressed so they won't shoot at Echo (gives Echo a little bit of leeway to risk getting into someone's arc), the AP is there to disrupt. 

 

Option 7:

Krassis + HLC + Engine (47)

AP (12)

99 pts

 

Krassis is deadly with the HLC, and with Engine should make him easier to boost away after the first joust and turn around fast enough for another R2/3 HLC shots.   I can also take Recon Specialist on Krassis for extra HLC fun and more defense, but his maneuverability will suffer and probably wil lhave to K-Turn or turn around for 2 turns before using HLC again.

 

Ok, I know there are a lot of options here, but just wanted to have people point out any bad synergies, bad tactics, or suggest better ones while I still have 2 weeks to test out the lists and see what works best.  Option 1, 4, and 7 are ones I've played before (somestimes subbing Soontir for Echo and adding an AP), the rest I haven't.

 

Fire away!  thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 kryzak

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:22 PM

anyone? =)



#3 UndefeatedAce

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:38 PM

I was happily reading through all of your list ideas & was looking forward to the extra advice & pointers. Lol! I was surprised too see no one had responded yet.

Anyhow, I noticed you didn't list any builds with interceptors, or at least I don't think you did. If you've never flown one before, you should definitely try a push the limit interceptor.

Sabers are 24

Royals 25

Then you have the top shelf guys everyone knows about.
But seriously, if flown correctly, they are extremely powerful & cheap enough you could also fit in a beefy bounty hunter.
Who needs shields when you've got skill.

#4 kryzak

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:52 PM

I was happily reading through all of your list ideas & was looking forward to the extra advice & pointers. Lol! I was surprised too see no one had responded yet.

Anyhow, I noticed you didn't list any builds with interceptors, or at least I don't think you did. If you've never flown one before, you should definitely try a push the limit interceptor.

Sabers are 24

Royals 25

Then you have the top shelf guys everyone knows about.
But seriously, if flown correctly, they are extremely powerful & cheap enough you could also fit in a beefy bounty hunter.

 

Thanks for the reply!  Haha, yeah, I was surprised to not see any replies since people usually jump on threads here. =)

 

Yup, I've flown interceptors quite a bit before Wave 4 hit.  My last tournament at a FLGS (where I finished 3rd - should have been 2nd if not for strength of schedule) was with:

 

Krassis + HLC + Recon

Turr + VI + Stealth

2 AP

 

which I think if I do that list again it would be:

BH + Gunner + RC (41)

Soontir + PTL + Shield (34)

2 AP (24)

99 pts

 

I also have a list that I'll probably use in a future tourney when I put Echo down for a bit which is:

Some type of BH (BH, Krassis or Kath)

Soontir + PTL

Turr + VI

 

But anyway, there is a potential Option here that I didn't mention, which is:

Echo + VI + ACD +FCS (37)

Lambda (Dogfighter) + AS + EU + RC + Intel Agent (32)

Soontir + PTL (30)

99 pts

 

It's a bit too fragile, especially against the current Falcon Meta (the shuttle will not be able to take on a Falcon by itself, and neither Echo nor Soontir will get anywhere near a Falcon).  So I'll save this one for a future casual game.


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#5 Slambdogg

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:52 AM

FCS (Fire control system) on a Phantom, especially a named phantom, in my opinion is a waste of points. Especially if you are rocking an ACD (advanced cloaking device).

 

The extra mobility the ACD will give you, combined with the awesome hitting power at range 1, means that you will very rarely be shooting at the same target two turns in a row. Either you will one shot something, or cause some damage and move on to another target.

 

So far in my games using Whisper with VI (veteran instincts) and ACD, i have left the systems upgrade slot blank. have not missed it. Sensor Jammer i have always found useful on my B-wings, but with a Phantom, if you are getting shot so much it becomes useful then you are doing something wrong.

 

My build would be:

 

==================
[Unnamed Squadron]
==================

100 points

Pilots
------

"Whisper" (36)
TIE Phantom (32), Veteran Instincts (1), Hull Upgrade (3)

Soontir Fel (35)
TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE (0), Push the Limit (3), Hull Upgrade (3), Targeting Computer (2)

Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

Backstabber (16)



#6 Jisforjets

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:20 AM

I like bombers for their durability and have not ran them like this before... But, I have drawn the short end of the Han recently and want something to go headhunting YTs.

Echo ACD VI
3xscimitar cluster missile
95

The threat of 18 dice should keep your YT honest..

#7 stmack

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:28 AM

My most recent Echo + mini swarm build has been:

 

99pts:
 
"Echo" (38)
TIE Phantom (30), Recon Specialist (3), Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Cloaking Device (4)
 
Howlrunner (21)
TIE Fighter (18), Push the Limit (3)
 
Black Squadron Pilot (16)
TIE Fighter (14), Wingman (2)
 
Academy Pilot (12)
 
Academy Pilot (12)
 
 
Really think wingman is underrated, let's Howl turtle every round without worry about the repercussions of being stressed, or even a few times last few games I've tried it it let Echo do a K-turn with the knowledge she'd lose her stress before firing allowing her to recloak again.

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#8 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 07:56 AM

Hurray, I'm contributing!
 

My main Echo build that I settled on is:
Echo + ACD + VI + FCS + Rebel Captive (40 pts)...


Rebel Captive is a strong upgrade, but I would urge you to reconsider the Recon Specialist. Even if Echo typically doesn't get attacked, with four dice a focus token increases the average number of evade results by 1 (1.5 to 2.5), and the mode of your evade results increases by 2 (the most frequently occurring result changes from 1 to 3).

If you think about Recon Specialist as saving you 2 points of damage--although of course it's more complicated than that, in practice--it looks a lot better even if you only use that extra token once per game. It's cheap insurance on those 4 hit points.
 

Option 1: I've been flying the following for 3-4 games now with the Echo:
- Doom Shulttle (OGP + Vader)
- BH + RS (or Gunner if I don't have FCS on Echo)
100 pts
 
I've destroyed 3 Amigo lists (Soontir, Turr+VI, whisper+VI), 2X2B, and Defender+Mini Swarm lists.  Fighting a Falcon+2X/B/Z list is an uphill battle and I haven't won against it yet.


It's a perfectly defensible choice in the abstract, but as you say, you're likely to struggle against lists that come at you with a lot of hit points--I'd expect either Wave-3-style Falcon/BB or Chewie+C3PO/ZZZ to give you fits, and based on the (small) sample of Wave 4 Regionals so far, I'd wouldn't rule out seeing lists like that multiple times. So I'd look elsewhere.
 

Option 2:
5 TIEs
100 pts


Personally, naked TIEs run en masse aren't my thing.
 

Option 3:
2 APs (24)
1 BSP (14)
1 BSP + DTF + Shield (19)
Add Sensor Jammer to Echo (+2 from FCS)
99 pts


I know it's a cliche, but why not run Howlrunner in your mini-swarm? Like this:

"Echo" (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Rebel Captive (3)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

"Howlrunner" (18)
Swarm Tactics (2)

Black Squadron Pilot (14)
Draw Their Fire (1)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 99

You have the same Draw Their Fire (although without the shield), better PS on your mini-swarm, and far better offense. You can also drop Swarm Tactics for a bit more room for initiative and/or changes to Echo's system upgrade (I'd go for Advanced Sensors over Sensor Jammer, personally).

I mean, Howlrunner is a cliche at this point because she's so good it's hard to make a case for leaving her out--except for Assault Missiles, but if your opponent (a) brings enough Assault Missiles to leave a serious dent and (b) spends them on attacking your mini-swarm, that all adds up to 10-15 points that aren't aimed toward Echo.
 

Option 4:
BH+Recon
2 AP
100 pts
 
2 APs cause havoc (though it'll almost guarantee I lose 24 points), BH and APs try to deal with Falcon and other big threats while Echo goes around killing.


I think this is a really good option. But "it'll almost guarantee I lose 24 points" is the wrong way to look at it, in a Phantom list: instead, try "wow, Echo is really effective when I give her 6 shield upgrades".
 

Option 5:
Doom Shuttle
3 APs
100 pts
 
Doom Shuttle can deal decent damage (with Vader's help), the extra AP gives 6 attack dice and 9 HP (almost like a BH) to deal with Falcons and other 1 agility ships, and cause blockage.


For my money, BH + Recon is a better buy than 3 Academy Pilots most of the time. Unfortunately the Falcon is one of those times where you have to reconsider... but I still don't think I'd run this over BH + 2x Academy or a mini-swarm.
 

Option 6:
Kath + Marksmanship + Gunner (46)
AP (12)
98 points


I've tried and tried to get Kath + Marksmanship + Gunner to work, and I can't. The double-stress trick is too inconsistent, and the lack of a defensive action leaves her vulnerable to concentrated fire from your opponent. Don't run this one.
 

Option 7:
Krassis + HLC + Engine (47)
AP (12)
99 pts


I am fond of Krassis + HLC, but I think a Recon Specialist (or the Rebel Captive, if you swap crew around on Echo) is a much better tool than Engine Upgrade. Engine Upgrade is good for closing distance, but you don't want to do that with an HLC, and it's good for running away, but you can't use the HLC while your vector is pointed away from your target.
 

Option 1, 4, and 7 are ones I've played before (somestimes subbing Soontir for Echo and adding an AP), the rest I haven't.


In your place I'd give strong consideration to this as a factor. I've found that a list with which I'm familiar and comfortable often performs better than one I'm putting on the table for the first time--even if the second list is objectively better on paper.

Edited by Vorpal Sword, 24 July 2014 - 07:59 AM.


#9 kryzak

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

 

@Slambdogg:  Yeah, FCS is one of those upgrades that I sometimes like and sometimes don't.  It has come in much more useful than Recon Specialist since there are *many* times even at R1 I roll only 1-2 hits and have to deal with the same person again (usually a B-Wing).  Having that target lock helped me kill it the next time, even when the next time is a couple turns later.

 

A Phantom, Interceptor + 2 TIE list is even more of an uphill battle against Han lists, which will be pretty numerous in the short term.  It'll take tremendous skill to fly it and some good luck to beat a YT, which I unfortunately do not have yet. ;-)

 

@Jisforjets:  Definitely interesting list.  I personally don't like bombers much except for Jonus, and even sold my bombers so I only have 1 now (whenever I use Jonus), so as much as I'd like to try that list, I'd have to borrow from a friend or two (most of them don't have bombers or only have 1).  I'd probably do concussion missiles because cluster missiles without TL or Focus is not that great, and it's really not good against higher agility ships.

 

@STmack:  I stopped taking Howlrunner for mini swarms because she doesn't add that much and usually gets killed before the APs get to shoot (even with swarm tactics, you only get 2 TIEs shooting with her benefit).  I've faced many Howlrunners and have also taken her out in the first round of shooting, stealth device+turtling or not. I'm considering more of a BSP+Predator build in the future for a 3-4 TIE swarm.

 

@Vorpal Sword: Good stuff, here's my response:
 

 

Rebel Captive is a strong upgrade, but I would urge you to reconsider the Recon Specialist. Even if Echo typically doesn't get attacked, with four dice a focus token increases the average number of evade results by 1 (1.5 to 2.5), and the mode of your evade results increases by 2 (the most frequently occurring result changes from 1 to 3).

If you think about Recon Specialist as saving you 2 points of damage--although of course it's more complicated than that, in practice--it looks a lot better even if you only use that extra token once per game. It's cheap insurance on those 4 hit points.

 

 

Recon Specialist is a good upgrade *if* you plan to get shot more often.  The few times I took it with Echo and risked getting shot, it *never* worked because either I rolled all blanks or rolled enough evades to deal with the shots.  The variance is just too great.  I do like having focus for attacks, but I can just take that when I decloak and I can only attack once anyways.  The way I fly Echo these days is that I never get her in the firing arc unless there is only 1 ship that can shoot back at her in the end game.  Having Rebel Captive will be super useful against that final ship (especially if they're K-turning to keep Echo in their sights or against another Echo or Whisper).  Ultimately, it's always a tradeoff between RS and RC, and based on my use of the RS (even on the BH), it has never really been that useful.

 

I know it's a cliche, but why not run Howlrunner in your mini-swarm? Like this:

"Echo" (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Rebel Captive (3)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

"Howlrunner" (18)
Swarm Tactics (2)

Black Squadron Pilot (14)
Draw Their Fire (1)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

 

Definitely interesting and much more survivable for Howlrunner than before.  I think I'm debating between just having the mini swarm of 4 TIEs or a BH + 2 TIES right now.  Good suggestion!

 

I think this is a really good option. But "it'll almost guarantee I lose 24 points" is the wrong way to look at it, in a Phantom list: instead, try "wow, Echo is really effective when I give her 6 shield upgrades".

 

 

The reason I said this is in the previous tournament, I lost by 12 points because I faced a 2 Amigos list (Vader, Soontir, Turr), and after 1 hour of just flying around taking pot shots at each other, he killed a TIE and just stayed away to get the win.  Yes, definitely rare occurance, but in tournament builds, I have to factor in time and tactics like this.
 

 

I am fond of Krassis + HLC, but I think a Recon Specialist (or the Rebel Captive, if you swap crew around on Echo) is a much better tool than Engine Upgrade. Engine Upgrade is good for closing distance, but you don't want to do that with an HLC, and it's good for running away, but you can't use the HLC while your vector is pointed away from your target.

 

 

Same here, but again, I flew Krassis+HLC in 2 tournaments and in casual games many times (probably 10-12 games in the past 2 months).  Never even once used the 2nd token up.  Maybe a fluke, maybe not, but having Engine means I can fly away quickly after the HLC attacks and actually turn around without K-turning so I can use the HLC again (135 degree turns are pretty awesome).  I don't use it as much to close distance or run away, more to get myself into R3 again on the other side without K-turning (which is bad on a Firespray).

 

In your place I'd give strong consideration to this as a factor. I've found that a list with which I'm familiar and comfortable often performs better than one I'm putting on the table for the first time--even if the second list is objectively better on paper.

 

 

Completely agree, which is why I'm trying to settle on a list now and practice with it so I'm familiar by the tournament (in 2.5 weeks).  =)

 

Thanks everyone!



#10 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

I am fond of Krassis + HLC, but I think a Recon Specialist (or the Rebel Captive, if you swap crew around on Echo) is a much better tool than Engine Upgrade. Engine Upgrade is good for closing distance, but you don't want to do that with an HLC, and it's good for running away, but you can't use the HLC while your vector is pointed away from your target.

 
Same here, but again, I flew Krassis+HLC in 2 tournaments and in casual games many times (probably 10-12 games in the past 2 months).  Never even once used the 2nd token up.  Maybe a fluke, maybe not, but having Engine means I can fly away quickly after the HLC attacks and actually turn around without K-turning so I can use the HLC again (135 degree turns are pretty awesome).  I don't use it as much to close distance or run away, more to get myself into R3 again on the other side without K-turning (which is bad on a Firespray).


I never really have a problem with K-turning Krassis + HLC. If my opponent chases, I just hit the brakes, evade, and blast away at close range; if my opponent isn't chasing me, I K-turn and take the HLC shot (with Krassis' reroll) at their flank, and then plan for a close-range primary shot on the following round.

HLC + reroll still isn't as good as having focus to support your attack, but using the Engine Upgrade for a 135-degree turn--while awesome--still consumes your action, so you're not really getting ahead of the K-turn. Probably all about personal preference, because that 1-point difference isn't going to make or break your list.

#11 kryzak

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:24 PM


I never really have a problem with K-turning Krassis + HLC. If my opponent chases, I just hit the brakes, evade, and blast away at close range; if my opponent isn't chasing me, I K-turn and take the HLC shot (with Krassis' reroll) at their flank, and then plan for a close-range primary shot on the following round.

HLC + reroll still isn't as good as having focus to support your attack, but using the Engine Upgrade for a 135-degree turn--while awesome--still consumes your action, so you're not really getting ahead of the K-turn. Probably all about personal preference, because that 1-point difference isn't going to make or break your list.

 

 

Well, it's definitely debatable.  For me, K-turning usually means I'm still in the firing arc and now without an action (so I can't trigger RS anyways).  moving away as apart of a 135 degree turn that can potentially get me out of firing arcs, while using up an action, is more flexible and keeps the opponent guessing because I could either do a K-Turn or fly away U-turn.  

 

But yeah, I think it's all about personal preference.  Definitely agree that the HLC needs both the reroll and the focus.  I think I would easily take Recon if it were 2 points, but at 3 points it's a tougher choice on the Firespray.



#12 kryzak

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:40 PM

Based on the good feedback, I'm gonna try these three lists in the next 2.5 weeks to see which one works best.  Feel free to continue critiquing!

 

Base: 

Echo + ACD + VI + RC + FCS (40)

 

Option 1:

Howlrunner + Swarm (20)

BSP + DTF (15)

2 x AP (24)

Total: 99

 

Howlrunner might survive the first round of shooting to allow 1 reroll of all for 3 TIEs, but after that she dies or the formation breaks up, so I can probably get 4 1-die rerolls out of the game.

 

Option 2:

2 x BSP + Predator (34)

2 x AP (24)

Total: 98

 

the 2 BSP will be targeted, but the 2 AP can fly off on their own to deny actions.  I should be able to get 2 rerolls off and then the surviving BSP might bet 2-3 more for the rest of the game.  Roughly the same amount of re-rolls, but less focused in the alpha strike, but also allows APs to do their job denying actions.

 

98 points also gives better initiative bid (losing initiative).

 

Option 3: 

BH + Recon (36)

2 x AP (24)

Total: 100 

 

I may drop FCS on Echo to bid for losing initiative (so I can go after the PS8 people).  

 

I'm currently leaning Option 2 or 3 more.

 

Thanks in advance for more thoughts!



#13 StevenO

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:43 PM

Although similar to some of the four TIE lists you've had suggested may you would try this:

 

BSP + DtF (x2) [alternatively you could run VI here too for four PS 6 TIEs]

Backstabber

Dark Curse

 

This would cost the FCS on Echo but give you the damage threat from Backstabber, the 'harder to kill' from Dark Curse, and crit protection with both of the BSP.



#14 kryzak

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:06 PM

Although similar to some of the four TIE lists you've had suggested may you would try this:

 

BSP + DtF (x2) [alternatively you could run VI here too for four PS 6 TIEs]

Backstabber

Dark Curse

 

This would cost the FCS on Echo but give you the damage threat from Backstabber, the 'harder to kill' from Dark Curse, and crit protection with both of the BSP.

 

Very interesting list.  I can definitely see Dark Curse fit in there and the 2 BSP with DtF making the damage more distributed (I love the idea), but Backstabber doesn't really fit in there since he generally has to fly alone.  Are you suggesting i fly the 3 TIEs together for a very hard to kill group and Backstabber flanking on the other side of Echo threatening a bit? 



#15 kryzak

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:13 PM

Actually, StevenO, your idea made me think of this list, which keeps the mini swarm together and make them harder to kill (by distributing crits).

 

3xBSP+DtF

Dark Curse

 

Removing the FCS on Echo gives the list 99 points.  If they focus fire on one TIE and cause a crit, a healthy TIE will absorb it.  If they now focus on the TIE with crit, hopefully that TIE can survive or at least another TIE can take the crit.  Dark Curse will just be someone they avoid shooting at all. 

 

Alternatively, I can have

4xBSP + DtF

 

Echo can have the FCS for 100 points or no FCS for 98 points to bid for initiative (losing it). 



#16 StevenO

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 05:14 AM

Those are some of the "variations" I'm thinking about.

 

When it came to Backstabber part of the appeal there is to force your opponent to pay attention.  Guess you're running Echo as the "flank" and Backstabber would help make sure your opponent doesn't want to turn away to meet that threat.



#17 kryzak

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:16 AM

Hmm, just tried Echo with 4xBSP + DtF against Han+Luke+C3PO+MF with 2 Blues + AS (and realized that's 107 points) in a game against myself,roughly moving each army pretending I don't know where the other is going.

 

After 1 hour of playing, the 4xBSP chased Han around the board 360 degrees, while the 2 B-Wings kept chasing Echo but never shot at her.  Echo was never able to get fully behind the B-Wings because of advanced sensors (now i know I was playing against a list with 9 more points). 

 

Ultimately, Han had 5 hull left when he finally killed 1 BSP, and I stopped the game there.

 

The entire time I wish my BSP had Outmaneuver, because that would have killed Han already since he was running away the whole time from the mini-swarm.  If he went head on with the swarm, things may have been different.  I wonder what people usually do with HSF when they see a mini swarm.

 

Conclusion:

DtF is interesting, and it did spread out the damage a bit, it was not as useful as I hoped.

 

I'm going to try

2xBSP with Outmaneuver

2x AP

Echo + ACD + VI + RC + FCS

98 points

 

or Echo with

BH + Recon (36)

2 x AP (24)

Total: 100

 

C-3PO with MF title is just too tough for the mini-swarm unless they had something like Predator, Outmaneuver, or Howlrunner helping. 

 

The ultimate goal is to try to b






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