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Why Veteran Instincts with Echo??


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#1 Papamambo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:11 PM

I've had my wave IV ships since the day they launched, but so far haven't had the opportunity to play with them yet.. I've played with some builders but that's really it so far as I just returned from a 3 week vacation.

What I seem to see a lot of though are people pairing Echo with Veteran Instincts. Why? In the few lists I've come up with, I just don't see the value when compared to some of the other options that are available like Outmaneuver, Push the Limit, Predator or Opportunist?

I understand that you're hoping to shoot first so you can recloak right away (with Advanced Cloaking), but beyond that I see it as a wasted opportunity. .
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#2 Eltnot

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:20 PM

I've had my wave IV ships since the day they launched, but so far haven't had the opportunity to play with them yet.. I've played with some builders but that's really it so far as I just returned from a 3 week vacation.

What I seem to see a lot of though are people pairing Echo with Veteran Instincts. Why? In the few lists I've come up with, I just don't see the value when compared to some of the other options that are available like Outmaneuver, Push the Limit, Predator or Opportunist?

I understand that you're hoping to shoot first so you can recloak right away (with Advanced Cloaking), but beyond that I see it as a wasted opportunity. .

Because that exact reason.  They play much like a TIE Interceptor except they are even more fragile and cost more.  If you are caught by a high PS pilot who has arc on you, then your investment goes away very quickly.  So it's less about being cloaked before people shoot you and more about know where everyone else has moved so that you can completely or mostly eliminate return fire.


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#3 DreadStar

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:21 PM

- +2 Agility is nice when you aren't cheap.

- The later you move with decloak, the better you will perform.

 

None of the other EPT can give you nearly as much.



#4 Folkenhellfang

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:21 PM

I like using a more damage oriented ept on my phantoms as well.The main reason most people use VI is, as you surmised, to get the first shot. Against most adversaries, I agree it's a waste. Against 360 firing arcs it's more important to get the shot and re-cloak before Chewie gets a shot at you with only two evade dice to protect you.

#5 Vargas79

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:22 PM

The idea is that he can decloak after he's seen where all the other ships have moved to and pick the sweet spot.
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#6 Caadium

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:25 PM

The idea is that he can decloak after he's seen where all the other ships have moved to and pick the sweet spot.

Well said.

 

The 2 dodge dice for cloaking are nowhere near as useful as simply not being a viable target.


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#7 Hobojebus

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:27 PM

If there is a falcon about vi is well worth it, if your just against fighters though I'd take outmanouver myself.



#8 Papamambo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:28 PM

But wouldn't Decoy or Swarm Tactics work better? I'm thinking Swarm on Howlrunner or Decoy on the Phantom running alongside Howl or Fel. .
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#9 PhantomFO

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:29 PM

Push the Limit and Opportunist also inflict stress, which means you're not able to use Advanced Cloak.

There could be a case for PTL if you use it off the free Cloak action, but you're still limiting yourself to green moves next turn unless you want to die.
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#10 JJFDVORAK

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:32 PM

Yes taking VI is very beneficial to ensure that you can re cloak with ACD and not get shot (as much) without your 4 evades.  But the real advantage of Phantoms is their unpredictabiliy and being able to decloak to get better positioning.  This makes ACD imo crucial to be able to decloak everyturn.  In order to decloak you have to be able to recloak after shooting so you can't be stressed.  Therefore PtL and Opportunist are out.  Predator is good and outmanuever are good(better options than PtL and Opportunist) but I think that VI is the best to at least attempt to get your cloak back up before getting shot.



#11 PhantomFO

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:32 PM

But wouldn't Decoy or Swarm Tactics work better? I'm thinking Swarm on Howlrunner or Decoy on the Phantom running alongside Howl or Fel. .


Both of those require you to remain in a certain range of another ship, and go away if that ship pops. Decoy might be with trying, but it puts a lot of importance on Soontir and paints a large bullseye on him.
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#12 StevenO

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:41 PM

But wouldn't Decoy or Swarm Tactics work better? I'm thinking Swarm on Howlrunner or Decoy on the Phantom running alongside Howl or Fel. .

 

Not really.

 

As mentioned you see range issues and you really want your Phantoms, especially Echo, to be unpredictable.  There is also the issue that those two will only help the Phantom SHOOT earlier (using ACD) and therefore do not contribute to the arc-dodging you probably should be trying when you decloak.

 

Now if you are using one of the generic Phantoms with some highly skilled pilots you may want to try them BUT in many cases those Imperial ships will want to use something else.  I'm not sure too many people will want to put Swarm Tactics on Fel as you really want to have that EP slot open for a stress inducer.  It may work with Howlrunner but doing that is limiting mobility and putting a bigger bullseye on her.

 

With the named Phantoms putting VI on them for a single point is often a point well spent if you ever run into pilots whose PS would otherwise be higher.



#13 Papamambo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:41 PM

But wouldn't Decoy or Swarm Tactics work better? I'm thinking Swarm on Howlrunner or Decoy on the Phantom running alongside Howl or Fel. .

Both of those require you to remain in a certain range of another ship, and go away if that ship pops. Decoy might be with trying, but it puts a lot of importance on Soontir and paints a large bullseye on him.

I think that may be the point of Fel alongside Echo. Your opponent has to prioritize the biggest threat..

Guess I'll need to sit down for a few games and see what I can find.
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#14 Deltmi

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:45 PM

OP, you said yourself that you haven't tried the Phantom yet. Well, try running Echo without VI and then run him with VI. You'll just have to see for yourself whether you think VI is worth it. 

 

It's of the opinion of most forum users that VI and ACD are MUST haves for the named Phantoms. 


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#15 PhantomFO

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:51 PM

But wouldn't Decoy or Swarm Tactics work better? I'm thinking Swarm on Howlrunner or Decoy on the Phantom running alongside Howl or Fel. .

 
Not really.
 
As mentioned you see range issues and you really want your Phantoms, especially Echo, to be unpredictable.  There is also the issue that those two will only help the Phantom SHOOT earlier (using ACD) and therefore do not contribute to the arc-dodging you probably should be trying when you decloak.
 
Now if you are using one of the generic Phantoms with some highly skilled pilots you may want to try them BUT in many cases those Imperial ships will want to use something else.  I'm not sure too many people will want to put Swarm Tactics on Fel as you really want to have that EP slot open for a stress inducer.  It may work with Howlrunner but doing that is limiting mobility and putting a bigger bullseye on her.
 
With the named Phantoms putting VI on them for a single point is often a point well spent if you ever run into pilots whose PS would otherwise be higher.
I'm assuming Decoy would go on Echo. That would let Echo borrow Soontir's PS9.

It's intriguing, but it also leaves Echo moving at PS6. Against higher PS pilots, this will allow them to react to you and keep you in arc. It also gives them an idea of what Soontir's going to do when he moves, since he'll presumably be somewhere within Range 2 of Echo's location.
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#16 bobbywhiskey

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:55 PM

The funny part is you probably could play echo with outmanuever at this point. VI isn't going to help against han/whisper. There really are not any pilots between PS 5 and PS9 that are getting played all that much (howlrunner doesn't really count). It's pretty much just OTHER echos, and the fact that they aren't likely to give up the VI, but again whisper seems to be more common now. But people are mostly playing it because they figure it just makes sense on the phantom. 


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#17 PhantomFO

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:09 PM

The funny part is you probably could play echo with outmanuever at this point. VI isn't going to help against han/whisper. There really are not any pilots between PS 5 and PS9 that are getting played all that much (howlrunner doesn't really count). It's pretty much just OTHER echos, and the fact that they aren't likely to give up the VI, but again whisper seems to be more common now. But people are mostly playing it because they figure it just makes sense on the phantom.

Howlrunner, Cracken, Wedge, Luke and Corran Horn have all made frequent appearances in Top 16s at Regionals. Rexler shows up occasionally.
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#18 phild0

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:16 PM

Why? For no other reasom than because every other player will run Echo with VI, and when you get matched up against them it will be no fun.

#19 Mace Windu

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:20 PM

Why? For no other reasom than because every other player will run Echo with VI, and when you get matched up against them it will be no fun.

What he said, I played a game with Echo + VI against another list with both Echo and Whisper, neither of which had VI and wiped the floor with them. moving after everyone else is crucial for getting out of arcs and improving your own arcs.


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#20 GiraffeandZebra

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:22 PM

The funny part is you probably could play echo with outmanuever at this point. VI isn't going to help against han/whisper. There really are not any pilots between PS 5 and PS9 that are getting played all that much (howlrunner doesn't really count). It's pretty much just OTHER echos, and the fact that they aren't likely to give up the VI, but again whisper seems to be more common now. But people are mostly playing it because they figure it just makes sense on the phantom.

Howlrunner, Cracken, Wedge, Luke and Corran Horn have all made frequent appearances in Top 16s at Regionals. Rexler shows up occasionally.
Many with VI push to PS10 to counter Whisper.

While I agree that you could probably fly Echo without VI due to the lack of pilots in the meta at 6,7,8...People use VI on the off chance they are there because the downside is just that big and the upside of Predator/outmaneuver/etc too small to make the risk worth it.

Edited by GiraffeandZebra, 22 July 2014 - 06:26 PM.





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