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X-wing based space combat?


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#1 durek_7

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:10 AM

Ive been doing some more research and reviews.
One thing ive come accross is criticism of the space combat aspects of the game.
Is there any way to incorporate Xwing mini game in this system?

Edited by durek_7, 22 July 2014 - 04:47 AM.


#2 Naglareph

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:18 AM

I'm not an expert player of X-Wing, but my answer would be quite simple.

No you can't, it's not meant for it and it would be a pain to change everything from one game to the other.

 

But you could create your own "mini game", or adapt the EOTE space systeme to the X-Wing game.

 

I would do that quite simply, juste use the figurines for a visual representation, and then entirely build the space fight around what happens in the game. If a unit can move a couple times during it's round juste move the figurine twice one the board. it would work great for narrative purposes, and just thinking about it, makes me think of a couple ideas to set up space games.

 

En of the line, just a simple, and straightforward visual representation of what's happening in the EotE game through the use of the figurines. And keep in mind that you should be as narrative as possible.


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#3 Jordan Peacock

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:58 AM

My answer is a bit nuanced.  Yes you could, with some work, but it's not meant for it, and it requires a lot of GM "winging it" and a bit of player trust.

 

(Based on personal experience: If the players get to spend the first few "hybrid combat" scenarios kicking tail and taking names, they're far more tolerant of the GM chopping up the rules something awful than if their first experience with this is that it goes from "We were doing so well using the Edge of Empire rules" to "We are getting CREAMED!")

 

For my own campaign, I've been toying with using X-Wing Miniatures for space combat, but this is a bit of a "work in progress."  I've still been reverting to using Edge of Empire and general abstraction for some scenarios where the scale of a typical X-Wing battle doesn't seem appropriate, or it's not necessarily a straightforward fight (e.g., a chase).

 

But for the scenarios where it IS starfighter combat, I've printed off some "cheat sheets" for the players.  A few details:

 

1) To convert your pilot's Piloting (Space) skill into a "Piloting" score for turn order, add up the dice: each green die = +1, each yellow die = +2.  Or, add the ranks + the ability (and you'll get the same result).  Example: a TIE fighter pilot with 3 Agility and 1 rank in Piloting (Space) is going to have an X-Wing Piloting skill of 4 (1 yellow + 2 green).

 

2) Don't bother with the maneuver wheels if you don't have to.  I find it's handy to print off a "ref sheet" for a ship that includes both its Edge of Empire stats and the closest approximate X-Wing stats, AND a "maneuver chart."  If everyone just goes down the line with the low Pilot scores doing their movements first, and the high Pilot scores moving last, it has the end effect of letting high-Piloting characters have a better chance of outmaneuvering the low-Piloting characters without fiddling about with secret maneuver wheels and such.  (Plus, it's a bit more complex to make a custom maneuver wheel than it is to just make a summary chart to put on a reference sheet.)

 

3) To convert Gunnery skill: use the same method as for PIloting (green = +1, yellow = +2), and then subtract 3 from the result.  If there is a positive number, then anyone who is acting as a gunner can reroll that many attack dice (taking the new result, whether better or worse) per turn on any attacks he makes.  If it's zero, there's no effect.  If it's a NEGATIVE number, he SUBTRACTS that number of dice from his attack dice pool (minimum of 1).  Some folks, you just shouldn't put in charge of shooting stuff.

 

3b) Anyone acting as a gunner (separate from the pilot) gets to act on the pilot's action.  If you've got multiple crew on a ship (say, a YT-1300), it's up to the players to figure out among themselves in what order to resolve their actions/attacks.

 

3c) Some ships may behave differently with extra crew -- GM's discretion.  For example, with the YT-1300, I rule that if you only have a pilot, he can fire, but only in the forward arc.  Give the YT-1300 a gunner, and it has an additional attack that can be made inside OR outside the forward arc.  Give it TWO gunners, and it can make two attacks in any direction -- but the pilot doesn't get to shoot anymore (because the ship only has two turrets!).

 

4) I've been toying with other roles, too, such as someone acting as ship's Mechanic, or someone operating Computers.  I calculate a score as with the Gunner (green = +1, yellow = +2, subtract 3, so you need a certain minimum skill to do any good) -- but after that, I'm still hammering out the details.  In rough summary, the Mechanic gets to use an ability as per the various Astromech cards each round, while the Computers operator gets to reroll a certain number of dice each turn on ANY attack or defense rolls made within range 3 of the ship he's on.  I can't vouch for play balance yet, so it needs work.

 

5) The real challenge is going to be to handle things that don't fall neatly into what you've already got stats for.  If a scenario calls for something besides a TIE fighter or X-Wing or whatever else you actually have the cards/wheels/bases for, then just approximate it.  For a while, I was using X-Wing maneuver dials for NPC "Headhunters," and the players didn't really notice, because Headhunters tend to blow up pretty quickly anyway compared to a proper X-Wing.

 

Also, don't crowd the field of action too much.  Traffic jams start to look silly in starfighter combat.

 

I know it's not a complete answer, but I think there could be some real potential in the idea.  I just wish someone more qualified than I am could come up with some playtested "crossover" rules.  :)


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#4 Ghostofman

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:10 AM

This comes up about once a month. Durek, as new as you are to the system, don't try it. You'll essentially be redesigning two games from the ground up to not only be one, but also work in ways neither is intended to work.

 

The space combat system works just fine, it just doesn't work the way people expect it to is all. Its narrative driven, is designed to be fast with the actual rolled encounter typically being small and focused, and (like a lot of games really) the player that understands it the best and can leverage its features will be the ace. Use the gm forum, well be happy to help you lay out your encounter to keep the players alive and happy.

 

Something I've found with this system is not to make assumptions, there's a lot of things I've read the first time and said "oh, gee, that can't work" but after running it two or three times, it totally does, usually really well.


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#5 durek_7

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:39 AM

Oh I havnt read the rule book looking at getting it soon, as the store has no Beginner kits in now either...

Just the reviews I seen had this as the more consistent concern.
Was a passing thought.


Edited by durek_7, 22 July 2014 - 06:39 AM.


#6 MrDodger

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:40 AM

If you're interested the latest edition of the Sabacc Table Podcast has a lengthy discussion on this very topic.


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#7 Ghostofman

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:32 AM

Yeah, there's also some demos over on O66 as well.

 

Just go in reading the chapter on vehicle and space combat as if you've never played any other game before. A lot of the problems people have is when they try and apply assumptions and mechanics from other systems into this one, like working a grid, or expecting things to work like ranged combat on the ground (oddly it works more like melee combat).

 

If you get the EotE beginner's box it's got a very boring simplified space fight, but I'd redo it to fit the full runs. better to do it correctly from the get-go then have to learn it a second time without training wheels.

 

A big thing to understand up front is that FFG based their design theory largely on the films, so you may want to just sit down and re-watch the space battles and vehicle engagements you see there. And really watch it. It's funny how you probably remember these long epic space battles but from an RPG perspective it's only a really well narrated skirmish between a couple of  craft over the course of three or four rounds.


Edited by Ghostofman, 22 July 2014 - 09:34 AM.

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#8 x13phantom

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:38 AM

would be useful for positioning and facings, ranges, speed especially when you have multiple combatants, because

 

I admit this system is a little hard for me to wrap my head around. I used to play D6 and I don't remember that being

 

as difficult, but I think that I would just wing allot more then than now.


Edited by x13phantom, 22 July 2014 - 11:39 AM.


#9 BadMotivator

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

Don't do it.

 

The Space Combat system for this game is fine. Its really meant to be second string to the normal combat system.

 

The X-wing miniatures however are perfect for visually representing any space battle you engage in.


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#10 durek_7

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:00 PM

lol, ok the overwhelming opinion from players and non reviewers is the system is fine and use them for visual.
That's what ill go with.
Thx

I'll check those Podcasts out tonight :)


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#11 Ghostofman

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:02 PM

And don't be afraid to come back and ask for help. Moving from something more conventional to this system can be a jarring experience.


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#12 durek_7

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:07 PM

Sure, we play a few systems if that helps compare them...

D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, Hollow Earth, Supernatural RPG, WoD & D20 Modern.



#13 Jordan Peacock

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:44 PM

One thing I'd note if you're going to use the Edge of Empire rules as written for space combat: Don't let your players rules-lawyer you*.  The way it's written, I think it's MEANT to give the GM a lot of leeway on outcomes, but I've had players interpreting the tables with examples on what to do with multiple Successes, Advantages, Threats, Failures very LITERALLY.

 

And probably the worst thing was dealing with the situation of, say, a starship slamming into another, HEAD ON.  Oh, that's a Major Collision, then?  Well, it looks like if it wasn't anybody important (a mook), then it's just -- kaboom, kablooie, that TIE fighter is out of the game.  But YOUR ship, with the heroes on it?  Looks like we have to roll on the Critical Hit table.  And what result shall we have?  (roll)  Huh.  Okay, you can't push yourself to make additional maneuvers for the rest of the battle, or something like that, until someone Repairs the problem.  Good thing you've got a mechanic with godly-high Repair skill.

 

Like, wow.  I expected the heroes to be more durable than the Imps and space pirates, but I hadn't realized they'd be THAT durable.

 

The system is AWFULLY forgiving to the players in terms of survivability -- just as it should be, of course, for the sake of getting that "Star Wars" feel.  But it gets just plain weird when you've got situations where that "player forgiveness" leads to something beyond typical expectations -- an asteroid-field or canyon-run isn't nearly so scary when the worst that can happen is your shields take a hit or you've got some petty little "Critical Hit" result that's going to mildly inconvenience you, while the "mooks" are vaporizing themselves left and right.

 

As soon as a player gets it into his head that a viable tactic is just to just RAM an enemy ship "because I'm a PC and he's not, so that means I'll survive, and he's space dust," there's going to be trouble.  My players tend to give me an awful lot of leeway in setting up situations, but once they get it into their heads that "The rules say I'm allowed to do thus and such," it can be like screaming murder if I make a GM call such as, "I'm sorry, but you just slammed cockpit-first into an ASTEROID in a flying rustbucket.  I don't CARE what the critical-hit result was.  You are OUT OF THE ACTION for now, and you're going to have to make repairs...."

 

 
(* Of course, maybe I'm just reading the rules wrong, or letting my players argue me into a wrong interpretation of the rules.  My usual GMing style consists of, if there's a rules dispute, I tend to just go with whatever the players claim the rules say, and we'll sort it out later, because I don't want to break the action to go thumbing through rules books.  The downside is that it kind of REWARDS players for making frivolous rules arguments, since I'm not about to "punish" the players if I find out they were wrong.)


#14 BadMotivator

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:17 PM

I wouldn't say that Space Combat is all that forgiving compared to ground combat.

 

Given that its very very expensive to repair ships, crits are more likely to stick around. And being in a ship which rolls high on the crit table is very very bad.

 

And yes, the GM should be prepared to lay down the law(laws of physics that is). And of course inform the PCs before hand that if they do something stupid that you are not above killing them.


I am the lag on your server! I am the cluster of dead pixels! I am the rattle in your engine! I am the friction in your bearings! I am the wearing down of your joints! I am the crick in your neck! I am the cracked gasket! I am the short circuit! I am the corroded fluid duct! I am the imperfect weld! I am entropy!

 

I am the Bad Motivator!





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