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Rebel Aces II?


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#81 iPeregrine

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:30 AM

Nobody agrees with you.

I agree with Peregrine


Feel free to go back under your bridge at any time.

#82 Lagomorphia

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:36 AM

I agree with Peregrine in that making the Y-wing a swarmer kind of defeats the point of it.

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#83 SpikeSpiegel

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:37 AM

But the fluff...
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#84 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:37 AM

Nobody agrees with you.

I agree with Peregrine

Feel free to go back under your bridge at any time.

You must have missed the part where he disagreed with you, as well as all of the other posts providing you with possible upgrades for the Y-Wing. But hey, I get it. Actually reading posts is really inconvenient when you can just take one sentence out of context and call me a troll.

Fine, then tell us what these interesting options are. Or just STFU.


Maybe it's time to step away from they keyboard again, or at least take your own advice. This whole internet thing isn't really your strong suit.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 04:46 AM.

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#85 iPeregrine

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:44 AM

Personally, I think the Y-wing should have been a 3 attack ship, and had it launched in a later wave it probably would have been or had something else to give it more kick. However, in Wave 1 FFG seemed to have no qualms with expensive 2 attack ships, hence the much maligned TIE advanced.


This is a fluff thing. The y-wing has a 2-dice gun because fluff-wise it has less laser firepower than the x-wing or b-wing (only two "normal" guns compared to the x-wing's four huge guns). And it's not really a problem because the vast majority of the time you're using a secondary weapon. The primary gun is just a backup for when you've taken a "destroy your ion turret" crit or somehow launched all your torps without dying, or maybe the occasional range-1 shot when you really need to get more damage than the ion turret can provide.

And the big question here is how you're going to pay for that third attack die. You've got b-wing level durability, so expect to pay b-wing level points. Now that gold with an ion turret costs 27 points instead of 23, just to get a primary weapon you don't really want to use very often. That would just be crippling, you might as well remove the y-wing from the game at that point.

The BTL-S3 (as opposed to the Yavin BTL-A4 that comes in the blister) has two pilots. BTL-S3 upgrade, give the Y-wing a crew slot.


The problem with this idea is that the second seat on the S3 version is for the turret gunner. The y-wing you get in the box right now IS the S3 version, since it has a turret option. And the single-seat A4 version that locks the turret in place doesn't get an empty seat in return, it just lets a single pilot fly the ship more effectively.

#86 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:48 AM

But the fluff...


This is a fluff thing...



XD

You called it. When will we go back to arguing about trivial semantic distinctions, I wonder?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 05:54 AM.

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#87 iPeregrine

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:49 AM

Maybe it's time to step away from they keyboard again, my friend. This whole internet thing isn't really your strong suit.


You're right, I bow to your superior post count inflating talents. I will never match the skills of a true troll and spammer like you. From now on I'll just pretend you don't exist and focus on making quality posts, therefore making myself infinitely more valuable to the community than you could even dream of being.

#88 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:57 AM

Jeeze, talk about having an inflated ego. You do realize that I have well over 2,000 posts, don't you? Not all of those were directed toward letting you make an absolute fool of yourself. Considering the fact that this might well be the first time I've seen anyone come close to agreeing with you, I'd say you have a long way to go before becoming a "valuable" member of this community. But hey, whatever makes you feel good about yourself. I can live with you bowing out of yet another argument, especially if it means I get to see you cry about me winning the internet again.
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#89 Lagomorphia

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:09 AM

This is a fluff thing.

The lore's very inconsistent on the Y-wing. Some places they're more powerful weaponwise than the Y-wing, their setback being maneuvering like bricks.

 

The problem with this idea is that the second seat on the S3 version is for the turret gunner. The y-wing you get in the box right now IS the S3 version, since it has a turret option. And the single-seat A4 version that locks the turret in place doesn't get an empty seat in return, it just lets a single pilot fly the ship more effectively.

It says BTL-A4 on the Y-wing blister.

 

Now that gold with an ion turret costs 27 points instead of 23, just to get a primary weapon you don't really want to use very often. That would just be crippling, you might as well remove the y-wing from the game at that point.

But then the ion turret probably would have been cheaper, it being designed when the only turret was a Y-wing. Plus, were it 3 attack dice you probably would want to use it more, making the turret compete with the main guns. Could be interesting.

Although that has got me thinking, replacing the turret with an attack die could be interesting...


Edited by Lagomorphia, 23 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.


#90 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:14 AM

Oh, and for the record:

 

Apparently giving the best close range fighter in the game access to support upgrades is a higher priority than making more options available for a ship whose "only real upgrade choice is whether to take [Ion Cannon Turret] or not." Oh wait, that's not really even a choice...

 

Look, there isn't a ship in the game that won't profit from more options, but did we really need those options for one of the currently most ubiquitous ships in the game before the Y-Wing? I'm all for more Firespray pilots, but I wouldn't expect to see them before the TIE Advanced gets some love.

 

 

stuff

 

So flavor means more to you than the state of the game. Okay, let's throw out the "aces" nomenclature and focus on what would actually improve the game. I have no problem with FFG pushing the meta towards more expensive, named pilots, but that's nothing they couldn't also accomplish with the Y-Wing - and nothing they aren't already doing with wave 4. Again, what's better for format diversity, making an already played ship even more prolific, or giving players a reason to fly an otherwise unidimensional and seldom used ship?

 

As for these gems:

 

1) The a-wing is an exciting dogfighter that makes a good "aces" ship. In fact, as soon as the imperial aces expansion was announced anyone with any sense could have guessed that the rebel one was going to have an a-wing.

2) The a-wing had the same problem as the b-wing: nobody wanted to use any of its upgrades or unique pilots. And it gets a similar solution, powerful new unique pilots that can replace the weaker old ones, and new upgrade options that encourage you to spend more points on the ship instead of just using the same old basic generics.

 

1) Anyone with any sense was predicting that it was going to be an A/Y-Wing expansion long before Rebel Aces was announced, for all of the obvious reasons that seem to elude you.

 

2) The A-Wing and the B-Wing do not have the same problem. The A-Wing has seen little play because it's overcosted, which both the refit and Z-95 make abundantly clear. The named B-Wings see little play because of a meta decision to field multiple generic ships rather than fewer named ones.

 

You seem to think that I don't understand your point. I do, just like always, and I disagree. Simply because you think the Y-Wing isn't fun doesn't mean the rest of us do as well. The B-Wing remains as playable as it's ever been, with more upgrades than you give it credit for (FCS or HLC anyone?). So, in your opinion, it's better to take a ship that already sees a considerable amount of play and give it even more options, rather than make an older, less played ship more desirable? Because that latter route is pretty much exactly where FFG is going with the A-Wing, and I don't see anyone complaining.

 

 

So, when talking about what should be included in an "aces" expansion, we should pretend that it isn't an "aces" expansion?


No, we should pretend like the state of the game matters more than a trivial semantic distinction. Besides, look at the current Rebel Aces lineup. Are any of those named pilots noteworthy to you, outside of the fact that they're included in the aces pack?

It can't be done as easily with the y-wing because the y-wing's design space is much smaller. It's a ship with a terrible dial, a terrible primary weapon, and such an obvious "take a turret and fly circles around the edge of the battle" role that it would be extremely difficult to make it do anything else.


Then I suppose that I'll thank my lucky stars that someone with such a limited imagination isn't part of FFG's creative development team.

Only people who didn't understand what "aces" means thought that. The a-wing was an incredibly obvious choice, and the obvious second choice (assuming two different ships) was the x-wing. When the transport provided all the x-wing stuff that would have been in an "aces" expansion there were two possibilities: double a-wing, or a-wing/b-wing.

The y-wing was never a likely option, and was only a popular guess because people thought that the intent of "aces" expansions was balance fixes to weak ships, not adding new elite pilots in exciting ships.


So for the umpteenth time, you're going to sit there and posture like you know better than the rest of the community. Okay.

And, when it has seen play, it's been the generic pilots with few/no upgrades. Nobody used the unique pilots or major upgrades because they weren't worth it compared to the generics. Now there are awesome unique pilots and EPT upgrades that encourage more diversity when you do take an a-wing.


You're still confusing a design limitation with a conscious meta decision. If wave 4 hadn't come along to shake up the meta, do you think Rebel Aces really would have revitalized the other named B-Wings that nobody is playing with? Because I haven't seen anything that would displace Blues or Daggers if wave 4 didn't discourage low PS spam.

 


Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 05:26 AM.

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#91 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:17 AM


It's not a "trivial semantic distinction" when it defines the content of a product.

 

The only thing definitive about Rebel Aces is that it's Rebel. What actually constitutes an ace in the Star Wars universe is purely subjective, and therefor open to interpretation. Hint: your interpretation isn't the only one that matters. Also, see my next point.

 

Err, lol? Farlander is a very popular character, and has powerful rules that a lot of people are eagerly anticipating. The two a-wing pilots aren't well-known characters, but they fit the "a-wing ace" archetype very well fluff-wise and have rules that make them appealing options. I'd say that satisfies the requirements to be called "noteworthy".

 

Popular =/= ace. I'm sure plenty of people know of him, but is simply being aware of his existence enough to constitute being labeled an ace? Probably not.

 

 

 

So I guess you're just going to abandon your skepticism that Farlander is some unknown that doesn't deserve the "ace" title?

 

I'm pretty sure I said neither of those things, only that being notable doesn't automatically make one an ace. Wasn't Maarek Stele also in one of those video games? So much for the aces treatment...

 

You admitted yourself that the A-Wings are largely unknown, so how do they make a better candidate for inclusion in an aces product than a Y-Wing? Because of another trivial distinction over what constitutes a dogfighter? Yeah, okay.

 

 


 Ace ships/pilots are supposed to be the best of the best, not the mediocre but cheap.

 

And you can do the exact same thing with Y-Wings. We're not talking about ships that can be classified as aces, only pilots. If you'd like I can flip through my Osprey books and find you plenty of examples of aces for real life vehicles that would be, in your opinion, less than optimal.

 

I don't know about the only argument, but it's certainly a valid one, if not the best. Please try to remember that we're playing an actual game here, not reading a book. Theme can take a back seat to good gameplay any day of the week as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps you're more in the "I want a scale Star Destroyer" camp.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 05:29 AM.

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#92 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:19 AM

Now look at their rules, not their obscure EU character names. Lorrir might not have been very impressive in a random EU story, but a TIE interceptor that can barrel roll with a curved template fits the "ace" archetype very well.


You're only contradicting yourself at this point. So, a Y-Wing can't get the aces treatment because it's not an archetypal dogfighter (whatever that means), yet FFG can bob their head, wrinkle their nose, and *POOF*, a person who has no business even being in the cockpit of a starfighter is suddenly an expert pilot. You've just admitted that they're an ace only because FFG says so, not because they correspond to some abstract definition of aceness that you've invented out of thin air. There's absolutely no reason why they couldn't do the same with a Y-Wing, and to say otherwise is pure sophistry.

And if you take away the theme you have a game that nobody would play.


Sacrifices have already been made along those lines, and the sky isn't falling yet. The notion that a Y-Wing Aces pack would somehow drive people away from the game is completely laughable.

Yeah, what kind of idiot designs a product that matches the theme of the name for that product? Screw the fluff, let's just put a HWK in the box with the new imperial huge ship because it needs some balance work.


Pilots are aces, not ships. There, now you don't have to bother wasting your energy and our time fighting over semantics again.

But why is this a problem? This is like complaining that the HWK sucks without a turret. Of course it does, it's a dedicated turret ship. The only reason it's an "optional" upgrade is so that you can pick which turret you want to use.


The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.

But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing. Trying to make it an x-wing with a weaker dial is just doomed to failure. And of course fluff-wise it's a borderline obsolete ship that is only still in service because the rebellion is desperate for any functioning ships it can gets its hands on, so that rules out doing any fancy tricks with it.So, what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.


I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.

That's every constructive response that I've directed toward iPeregrine over the course of just the past two threads, on this same sore subject. So much for inflating my spam count. Beaten about the head and shoulders? Check.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 05:44 AM.

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#93 Lagomorphia

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:28 AM

omg triple post



#94 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:29 AM

Nope, they're all different.


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#95 Lagomorphia

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:31 AM

Double posts aren't necessarily duplicates: posting after yourself (in lieu of editing) counts. That being said, I'm guessing it didn't let you put all that into one.



#96 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:32 AM

You can have a max of ten quotes, including nested ones.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 05:35 AM.

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#97 Rapture

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:14 AM

How impressive. More pathetic attempts at back-and-forth internet bullying and pandering for imaginary support to achieve some twisted idea of pointless argument victory are rarely made.

 

Is it too late to re-title this thread as 'How Not to Act in Public'?


Edited by Rapture, 23 July 2014 - 06:14 AM.

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#98 Lagomorphia

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:31 AM

How impressive. More pathetic attempts at back-and-forth internet bullying and pandering for imaginary support to achieve some twisted idea of pointless argument victory are rarely made.

 

Is it too late to re-title this thread as 'How Not to Act in Public'?

 

Calling them out for being aggressive by being aggressive kind of self-undermines yourself.


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#99 SpikeSpiegel

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

I wonder if WonderWAAAGH is a cool guy in person.
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#100 FTS Gecko

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:37 AM

Back on topic, I had breakfast for lunch today.

 

Cheese, chives and crispy pancetta omelette.  On toast.  And a glass of fresh orange juice.


Bacon for breakfast, bacon for tea; bacon for you, bacon for me.





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